Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

You will note that I included disability WITH a progressive, deteriorating condition. As a result some part of the ongoing experience of disability crosses THEIR threshold of unacceptable. In the end, it will always come back to autonomy and consent. For me, this is like abortion. I would never have an abortion. I would likely feel there is never a situation, FOR ME, to justify an abortion. However I strongly support the right for others to make different choices.

I don't agree that because someone with a severe, intractable condition (say ALS) has decided a feeding tube meets their threshold of unbearable suffering suggests my son's life is of lesser value because he lives with a feeding tube.

It's complicated, for sure. As I am learning to accept aging with CP - it is not a progressive deteriorating condition itself - the brain damage doesn't change - but how the effects manifest can change. One could develop arthritis much earlier because of wear and tear being different than that of an able bodied person. Or people who never had bladder incontinence before might experience it earlier because of muscle control weakening with the supporting but not as much used muscles aging - and so even though not progressive, still kind of 'deteriorating'. I've been reading some newer material on CP and aging. There isn't much to go on except testimonials and some minimal research. The bulk of CP info is for parents. So, I thought my ability level could never change before I was a senior, but it can! And rather than think of dying I think about working on what can be worked on and adapting to what can't - even pain. Now if competent minded adults with CP want to commit suicide because of decline in functioning, that would make me sad and angry and over time would make me wonder if my life is seen as less because of their decision. I already feel my life is worth less in the minds of others. A common feeling resulting from discrimination. I suppose that doesn't make sense to people how people could view it as as equality to live issue rather than equal right to die issue for many PWDs.

 

[Waterfall]

Has anyone else noticed Pontifex using phrases like "executed" and "put down"????
Hmmmmm ..... seems like emotions are clouding discussion......
I know what that feels like ..... I have been guilty of that on another thread.........

Yes, but he does represent a certain train of thought that will be out there.

 

[Hermann]

The score has gone into the Void.

The Void wins! I mean the "Dark Void" that, according to some Buddhists, is the ultimate reality.

I don't know whether the poster named "Void" has anything to do with the "Dark Void" of Buddhism?

Or is "Void" a woidplay on woids?

Anyway, welcome, Void, to wondercafe2! (Even if you are THE Dark Void)

 

[DaisyJane]

It's complicated, for sure. As I am learning to accept aging with CP - it is not a progressive deteriorating condition itself - the brain damage doesn't change - but how the effects manifest can change. One could develop arthritis much earlier because of wear and tear being different than that of an able bodied person. Or people who never had bladder incontinence before might experience it earlier because of muscle control weakening with the supporting but not as much used muscles aging - and so even though not progressive, still kind of 'deteriorating'. I've been reading some newer material on CP and aging. There isn't much to go on except testimonials and some minimal research. The bulk of CP info is for parents. So, I thought my ability level could never change before I was a senior, but it can! And rather than think of dying I think about working on what can be worked on and adapting to what can't - even pain. Now if competent minded adults with CP want to commit suicide because of decline in functioning, that would make me sad and angry and over time would make me wonder if my life is seen as less because of their decision. I already feel my life is worth less in the minds of others. A common feeling resulting from discrimination. I suppose that doesn't make sense to people how people could view it as as equality to live issue rather than equal right to die issue for many PWDs.

Fo me, Kimmio, you bring issues into the end of life debate that don't belong in the conversation and only serve to unhelpfully muddy the water. I agree that there is discrimination for people with disabilities and that disability are seen as "less then" at times. But after that you make huge leaps that don't make sense to me.

You seem worried that because society sends a message that someone may be "less than" it might translate into greater acceptance of supported suicide for that population at large. I agree that because disability was named in the legislation it means that we need ensure that situations are reviewed well and that we need to really parse the distinction between disability and suffering. However, there are lots of situations where one could interpret that they are "less than" because society offers stigmatizing messages - because they are a minority, a women, gay, and so on. And, at times, I have no doubt there are moments that being part of ANY stigmatized group can lead to suffering. Further, your point about the relationship between poverty and suffering is well made. But as I understand, the legislation is not so broad as to include these more systemic forms of suffering. Your assertions about disability, in my view, tend to fall into the latter camp. They don't meet the threshold even though we have the word "disability" in the decision.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Fo me, Kimmio, you bring issues into the end of life debate that don't belong in the conversation and only serve to unhelpfully muddy the water. I agree that there is discrimination for people with disabilities and that disability are seen as "less then" at times. But after that you make huge leaps that don't make sense to me.

You seem worried that because society sends a message that someone may be "less than" it might translate into greater acceptance of supported suicide for that population at large. I agree that because disability was named in the legislation it means that we need ensure that situations are reviewed well and that we need to really parse the distinction between disability and suffering. However, there are lots of situations where one could interpret that they are "less than" because society offers stigmatizing messages - because they are a minority, a women, gay, and so on. And, at times, I have no doubt there are moments that being part of ANY stigmatized group can lead to suffering. Further, your point about the relationship between poverty and suffering is well made. But as I understand, the legislation is not so broad as to include these more systemic forms of suffering. Your assertions about disability, in my view, tend to fall into the latter camp. They don't meet the threshold even though we have the word "disability" in the decision.

What muddies the waters is that 'irremediable' (whatever that means needs clarification and the CMA doesn't even know - chronic? Permanent?) conditions are included, as is 'mental pain'. I do not muddy the waters by being a person with two chronic conditions, one involving 'mental pain' for bringing it up as cause for concern. Neither do the disability rights groups. The Supreme Court decision, in it's wording, muddied the waters and we as citizens are tasked with trying to help unmuddy them before a panel of doctors, politicians and lawyers does it for us.

 

[Luce NDs]

Does "everything" need to be in the debate about what we know little of ... the eternal?

Some people only believe in everything if you can put it in a box and market it as something to cause death and elimination of responsible emotions ... that's allal in Hebrew ... and then the "heh" was off as an ancient symbol (icon, Semite of Levite ... light?).

Why hu m'n's are often in the dark ... believing in innocence, naïveté and all such ignorant material ... when the masses of wee people know more than those who ascended ... ass ND'd? Now there's a hermeneutic incident of quantum portion!
Much of reality survives in the un-conscious mind ... sometimes subconscious in nature ... as real people don't like being conscious to much!

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

If a person experiencing suffering's socioeconomic status is none of the doctor's business how would anyone even know that it could be adding to or creating their wish to commit suicide/ or contributing to mental pain and suffering and get missed in assessment?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Most adults with disabilities know how bureaucratic red tape and poorly worded or archaic policies can negatively impact their lives, so this being about life and death, PWD rights groups are going to try make their concerns heard, of course.

 

[Lastpointe]

We keep getting back to the point that we are talking aboutt competent terminal adults.

And power of attorney would not coe into play. If you are incompetent and have a power of attorney they by definition you are not competent to make the choice.

That may be a bad thing. Someone with altzeimers could have made a living will, choosing not to prolong life in any way but them becomes incompetent and so gets stuck

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

@Lastpointe the decision is not just specifying terminally ill adults, though. It may be a just decision for terminal adults but leaves some cracks for those not terminally ill to slip through and that's what I am concerned about.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

If it were just about terminally ill adults I might agree that disability has no place in end of life discussion.

 

[RitaTG]

Kimmo .... it would seem we all agree that there must be great care taken to make sure the cracks are sealed up.
However ..... that does not mean that we should not proceed simply because of the fear of cracks......

 

[Lastpointe]

I think though that you have to step back and recognize that a competent adult is entitled to make their decisions about their health.

Up to now , you continually post about PWD being taken advantage of, or not valued.

But no matter what someones conditions are, if they. Are mentally competent and otherwise qualify, on whatever rules are established, then they can makethat decision

To me, the big issue to protect against is someone feeling coerced. So i would expect a system be established of interviews and discussions with health professionals to ensure the person is making a sound decision for their own reasons.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Kimmo .... it would seem we all agree that there must be great care taken to make sure the cracks are sealed up.
However ..... that does not mean that we should not proceed simply because of the fear of cracks......

Yes it does. Imagine something proceeding that could disproportionately impact transgendered people, maybe put lives in danger if transgendered people had no voice in determining or interpreting the wording because it wasn't seen as a main issue by the mainstream, and how you would feel if it concerns weren't heard and respected first. That's how this is for PWD rights groups. PWD rights groups see their cause as similar to gender and race issues - a natural biological right to be and be equal.

 

[RitaTG]

Yes it does. Imagine something proceeding that could disproportionately impact transgendered people, maybe put lives in danger if transgendered people had no voice in determining or interpreting the wording because it wasn't seen as a main issue by the mainstream, and how you would feel if it concerns weren't heard and respected first. That's how this is for PWD rights groups.

I do not agree Kimmo ..... as you saw in the list Rev John posted there was plenty of representation from the disabled community.
Further .... when the law is being crafted there will be an extensive public consultation process and the various organizations that represent disabled persons will have input. The disabled will have a strong voice. This is how democracy works. The opportunity to be heard and have the concerns addressed are there. I have worked on issues that would affect the transgender community and that is how it is done.
The issue is far larger than the fears of a subset and those fears can and will be addressed.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I think though that you have to step back and recognize that a competent adult is entitled to make their decisions about their health.

Up to now , you continually post about PWD being taken advantage of, or not valued.

But no matter what someones conditions are, if they. Are mentally competent and otherwise qualify, on whatever rules are established, then they can makethat decision

To me, the big issue to protect against is someone feeling coerced. So i would expect a system be established of interviews and discussions with health professionals to ensure the person is making a sound decision for their own reasons.

PWDs have to have a voice in making the rules, that directs politicians and doctors and lawyers to their decision. Not the other way around.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I do not agree Kimmo ..... as you saw in the list Rev John posted there was plenty of representation from the disabled community.
Further .... when the law is being crafted there will be an extensive public consultation process and the various organizations that represent disabled persons will have input. The disabled will have a strong voice. This is how democracy works. The opportunity to be heard and have the concerns addressed are there. I have worked on issues that would affect the transgender community and that is how it is done.
The issue is far larger than the fears of a subset and those fears can and will be addressed.

What was missing was a disability rights commission as stipulated by the UN, to bring PWD research and concerns to the table in an official capacity.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It's not just a little subset Rita. Because disability involves chronic permanent conditions - it's a significant number of people. How bigotted.

 

[RitaTG]

Good grief Charlie Brown ..... around and around we go in circles.....
I agree with Void ..... this is now an issue with a direction set by the supreme court and we would better spend our time working on how we will contribute to the discussion on how the new law will be crafted.
I will focus my discussions towards that from here on out.

 

[chansen]

Kimmio, step away from the keyboard.