Oh I agree Bette, I'm just talking about those in pain.
Euthanasia in Canada, Supreme Court Ruled this Morning
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Stephen Hawking surely has pain and no cure on the horizon.
I have a condition with no cure. I have pain. I get depressed. How much is too much before people think people like me - thousands of us -are as good as dead? Maybe too much of a drain on society for various reasons instead of looking at our right to live with equality..
http://www.ccdonline.ca/en/humanrights/endoflife/euthanasia
Because of the above position is why I keep focusing on PWDs.
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Seeler
Well-Known Member
I have no idea what residential schools has to do with either topic.
I made the suggestion because I think it is an important one. For one thing it is a disgrace that people with disabilities through no fault of their own are often forced to live in poverty.
Since I don't want to derail this thread, I will start another myself.
Mrs.Anteater
Just keep going....
My question would rather be, if a physician could refuse to assist with suicide or will it become part of his duty?
At which point after a diagnosis would a person be allowed to choose? right after the ALS diagnosis? or when he becomes immobile? Or when he has trouble breathing? or at any time, because clearly ALS is always terminal?
At which point after a diagnosis would a person be allowed to choose? right after the ALS diagnosis? or when he becomes immobile? Or when he has trouble breathing? or at any time, because clearly ALS is always terminal?
ChemGal
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I would be shocked if the way this works means they would have to. My GP won't even prescribe me a medication that she thinks will do me good, because it's outside of what she feels comfortable doing.
The collective fear of the disability community as a disadvantaged group about systemic and institutionalized violence against people with disabilities because of ableist attitudes stemming from traditionally white priveledge...more or less. Priveledge at any rate. Disability rights groups want equality as people...who happen to have impairments and those impairments are seen like being a woman, of a certain racial background...no different, in the rights movement. They are conditions of being alive and human. Whereas the ableism inherent in this legislation diminishes disability to impairment not worth living for - the fear being that that will become the dominant view and put people with disabilities who are struggling to live and be viewed as equals, at risk.
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Their lives on the whole are more at risk by this legislation.
Which case in particular? There have been a few examples given.
1. Stephen Hawking has a very rare type of ALS - he is very much an anomaly. No one is saying that anyone has to choose this option - anymore than anyone is forced to take medical marijuana or ECT.
2, Forget Bette's acquaintance - I am a person with severe depression, anxiety and ADHD and tourette's who also has a sleeping problem and physical pain - everything has been tried - over 20 types of medication, in-patient and out-patient programs (including a very expensive private hospital in Ontario that is supposed to be the best in Canada), ECT. I spend thousands of dollars on care - massage, physio, chiro and psychotherapy to manage this condition (and I'm fotunate because I can). I would not have regretted choosing to end my life when I last tried in May 2013 (my careful planning tripped me up - I really don't want to traumatized anyone by my actions so I got caught). The pain is intolerable at times. That's not to say that my life sucks - it's actually pretty good right now but I hate the feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop and I truly believe it is my right to make this choice - no one is influencing me. In fact my husband and best friend beg me not to make this choice in addition to my shrink, my minister and others.
3. I would love to have a conversation about concrete actions everyone can take to make the world more equitable. I would like to have it as a separate thread so that it doesn't get buried as some of us discuss criteria and implementation of a forthcoming bill. I did (very) little work with a group last municipal election that worked on barriers to getting PWD and.or people who live below the poverty line out to vote. I like that type of work.
4. I believe that we are having a discussion and others aside from Kimmio and I are putting forth their views and feelings on the matter. It so happens that on this matter your views are not ones that most of us support and apparently that doesn't matter because we aren't disabled enough or may/may not be economically disadvantaged enough.
5. Accept that a bill is going to go forward and work toward putting the safeguards in place to protect the people you claim you want to protect - the Supreme Court of Canada - where you choose to live - has said that such an option is enshrined in our Constitution. Or split your efforts and work toward changing the Constitution and putting safe guards in place. Jumping up and down does nothing to stop the train that has left the station - it's left - it's time to figure out how to slow it down and ensure that passengers and the surrounding communities are safe.
2, Forget Bette's acquaintance - I am a person with severe depression, anxiety and ADHD and tourette's who also has a sleeping problem and physical pain - everything has been tried - over 20 types of medication, in-patient and out-patient programs (including a very expensive private hospital in Ontario that is supposed to be the best in Canada), ECT. I spend thousands of dollars on care - massage, physio, chiro and psychotherapy to manage this condition (and I'm fotunate because I can). I would not have regretted choosing to end my life when I last tried in May 2013 (my careful planning tripped me up - I really don't want to traumatized anyone by my actions so I got caught). The pain is intolerable at times. That's not to say that my life sucks - it's actually pretty good right now but I hate the feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop and I truly believe it is my right to make this choice - no one is influencing me. In fact my husband and best friend beg me not to make this choice in addition to my shrink, my minister and others.
3. I would love to have a conversation about concrete actions everyone can take to make the world more equitable. I would like to have it as a separate thread so that it doesn't get buried as some of us discuss criteria and implementation of a forthcoming bill. I did (very) little work with a group last municipal election that worked on barriers to getting PWD and.or people who live below the poverty line out to vote. I like that type of work.
4. I believe that we are having a discussion and others aside from Kimmio and I are putting forth their views and feelings on the matter. It so happens that on this matter your views are not ones that most of us support and apparently that doesn't matter because we aren't disabled enough or may/may not be economically disadvantaged enough.
5. Accept that a bill is going to go forward and work toward putting the safeguards in place to protect the people you claim you want to protect - the Supreme Court of Canada - where you choose to live - has said that such an option is enshrined in our Constitution. Or split your efforts and work toward changing the Constitution and putting safe guards in place. Jumping up and down does nothing to stop the train that has left the station - it's left - it's time to figure out how to slow it down and ensure that passengers and the surrounding communities are safe.
Rodriguez?
Disability rights movement is all about solving disadvantage/ inequality. It is not about impairment. That's a fact and not my opinion.
Otherwise I agree with you about many things. Getting PWDs to vote - sure! Yes! (as long as it's not a party specific effort - makes me go "hmm" when that happens). Yet, I am sick of this argument too it's freaking annoying. But I won't ignore the comments made that there is no potential problem with this legislation.
ChemGal
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? Where was anything said opposing that? What do you disagree with?
The accusation that I don't think you are people with disabilities enough. Of course - and even if you are currently a more economically advantaged PWD you are far more at risk of poverty and disadvantage than someone without impairment. That's the angle the rights movement comes from. But people got very angry with me for pointing out something I didn't invent.
A doctor has the right to refuse - just like docs who won't prescribe marijuana or narcotics. As someone who takes a "controlled substance" (Ritalin) I can tell you it is darn near impossible to get pain management for a physical injury - you are immediately suspected of "drug seeking". I tore my gastroc muscle in August and they would only give me tylenol at the hospital and wouldn't do an ultrasound because it wasn't serious enough to get someone to come do it (it was after hours - around 9pm) - turns out it was a tear (confirmed by an ultrasound weeks later). I really only needed a pain killer to get me through the initial pain and would have been satisfied with one. Or, we don't force OB/GYNs to perform abortions even though it is legally permissible.
I would think there would have to be some sort of cooling-off period. Specific milestones would have to be met - for everyone's safety (I don't think Stephen Hawking's ALS is imminently fatal - he's had it for well over a decade, maybe more which is super rare). While it's not at the same level I can tell you that being "formed" (ie. committed for mental illness) in Ontario has some of these checks in balances in place (after the initial form). An advocate comes to visit you; advises you of your rights; answers your questions; drops off a booklet and leaves you with a card so that if you have any questions you can call. But even on a form they can't force you to take ECT for example and there you are preventing someone from taking their life. Will some people get around these safeguards - yes. It is our duty, in my opinion, to make these events happen as infrequently as humanly possible - just like some airbags kill people but that doesn't mean we should rip them all out - we work to fix the mechanisms and put kids under 12 in the backseat.
We discussed this at our family gathering today - my sister in law who is a devout Catholic and was not born here - was telling us that her brother who suffered from a very quick and devastating form of MS would never have chosen to have death facilitated by a physician even when he was blind, bed-ridden and unable to eat or do anything for himself. Her father on the other hand had terminal cancer and begged her to hasten his death (she did not). They had the freedom to choose what they wanted.
I don't want to see people, when facing socioeconomic risk and disadvantage choosing to die instead of live - because it's painful. Harder on overall health. But I see the potential for people to be exploited that way. That breaks my heart - and scares me.
ChemGal
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Can you quote the specific part you disagree with?
When did I say it was about impairment? In fact, way back I actually said I don't celebrate my impairment the way others do. I will not call myself crazy (unless it's followed by in love or about something).
I (and I actually don't think anyone) said that there was no potential for problems - but just because there is, doesn't mean we should stick our heads in the sand either. And there is no legislation - just a ruling by the SCC that it is unconstituential to not allow people the freedom to choose. If you choose not to work toward the bill you are actually putting PWD at greater risk because it could become like the "wild west" because there would be no safe guards in place to protect the very people you claim you want to help - just like we have medical marijuana and a process to obtain it to ensure good quality product - if we just said we're against medical marijuana and we won't participate then people could do nefarious things to the product so ppl would have to resort to the black market and potentially put themselves at risk.
Just did.