I don't vaccinate my child because it's my right to determine which diseases come back

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Similarly, I don't like telethons, I don't like infomercials about the starving kids in Africa. I don't like that the world responds to that but not to basic human decency and responsibility to one another.
 
Kimmio said:
I never said it's right to lay the responsibility for autism at the feet of those who vaccinated their kids or the medical profession that was only trying to protect kids from something else - even if the vaccine did cause autism (which most evidence says it didn't). I do think that we have to stay mindful that drug companies are for-profit entities and that there is always a possibility that that could potentially colour their ethics - it's something to be aware of.
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Ahhhhhh. Vaccines do not cause autism. Never did. Never will. Most evidence doesn't say it didn't as in your quote above.

ALL evidence says it doesnt . Except for one wacky brit, on the take from a drug company, who fudged his datum to support their popsition. Who scared and scarred people across the west with his now thoroughly debunked study. He has since lost his licence to practice medicine. Thank God.


As to Polio. Yes, people survived. It was horrific, if you ever talk to anyone who spent time in an iron lung.

It was a terrible disease, completely eradicated due to vaccines until people started not getting vaccinated again. And when it does rear its ugly head, there is mass panic, lines ups to get booster shots and last time it hit Toronto, few deaths



As to your post about your room mate with the cold. A couple of things to do

Wash hands all the time. W think we do it alot. Double it
Dont touch your face. Ever
Clean all hard surfaces daily with a bleach type product
Make sure you have enough humidity in apartment. Dry winter air causes cracked nasal passages and an entry point for virus
Don't touch roommate or her stuff

Hopefully neither of you will get sick
 
Lastpointe said:
Ahhhhhh. Vaccines do not cause autism. Never did. Never will. Most evidence doesn't say it didn't as in your quote above.

ALL evidence says it doesnt . Except for one wacky brit, on the take from a drug company, who fudged his datum to support their popsition. Who scared and scarred people across the west with his now thoroughly debunked study. He has since lost his licence to practice medicine. Thank God.


As to Polio. Yes, people survived. It was horrific, if you ever talk to anyone who spent time in an iron lung.

It was a terrible disease, completely eradicated due to vaccines until people started not getting vaccinated again. And when it does rear its ugly head, there is mass panic, lines ups to get booster shots and last time it hit Toronto, few deaths



As to your post about your room mate with the cold. A couple of things to do

Wash hands all the time. W think we do it alot. Double it
Dont touch your face. Ever
Clean all hard surfaces daily with a bleach type product
Make sure you have enough humidity in apartment. Dry winter air causes cracked nasal passages and an entry point for virus
Don't touch roommate or her stuff

Hopefully neither of you will get sick
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Okay. Never did. I don't wish to argue that. That doesn't mean never to be skeptical of drug companies. ....Nobody wants anyone to get polio, never did, never would, just pointing out that the outcome of people having disabilities isn't the end of the world. Adults who have had full lives which could be better with improved attitudes about people with disabilities .

Thanks for your advice about the cold. We share kitchen stuff, computer, TV remote control - we're temporarily like a small family - all that is easier said than done (usually is). She's had it since last Friday (Thurs?) and so far so good here.
 
Kimmio said:
...even if the vaccine did cause autism (which most evidence says it didn't)....
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Oh, for Pete's sake. For absolute f***ing accuracy here, "which ALL evidence says it didn't"...

Edited to note that Lastpointe beat me to it. But really, even repeating this crap is irresponsible.
 
For Pete's sake Bette see post above and watch your own temper and language ma'am.
BetteTheRed said:
Oh, for Pete's sake. For absolute f***ing accuracy here, "which ALL evidence says it didn't"...

Edited to note that Lastpointe beat me to it. But really, even repeating this crap is irresponsible.
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Just trying to be diplomatic when I wrote 'most' and avoid a tirade from the other side. I guess that didn't stand out.
 
Doesn't like the language but quotes the post. FFS... (Also, the Queen of 7 posts in a row in 8 minutes talks about temper? Wow, pot, meet kettle...)
 
Aha, the joys of taking things personally. f*** was not directed at you. This is a public forum which anyone can read. It was an adjective used for grammatical stress purposes. Also because I come from a family of Scouse working class and that's a word we use. A lot.
 
Kimmio said:
Just trying to be diplomatic when I wrote 'most' and avoid a tirade from the other side. I guess that didn't stand out.
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The anti-vaxxers are putting their own precious flowers, plus immunocompromised kids and adults at risk. Now we have four confirmed measles cases in Toronto.

I missed it, but "most" isn't even true. Saying "most evidence says it doesn't" is not truthful. This isn't something you tell white lie about to save the feelings of people. Not when those people are putting others in harms way.
 
chansen said:
The anti-vaxxers are putting their own precious flowers, plus immunocompromised kids and adults at risk. Now we have four confirmed measles cases in Toronto.

I missed it, but "most" isn't even true. Saying "most evidence says it doesn't" is not truthful. This isn't something you tell white lie about to save the feelings of people. Not when those people are putting others in harms way.
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Well you're probably right but I didn't want to get into 'their evidence isn't evidence' I guess I was avoiding going there.
 
We all need to be very clear about vaccines.

They do not cause autism. Period. Fact. End of statement

Do some people have reactions to vaccines? Certainly. For the most part, sore arm, slight feeling of illness, slight fever.

Is there exceedingly rare bigger reactions? Yes.

But the risk of a reaction is ridiculously small compared to the risk of the disease.


I am puzzled by your comments about polio. It sounds like you are saying that polio, while it caused death adn paralysis, it wasnt so bad? That having mobility issues isnt so bad? But perhaps i am misreading your posts

Poli was a horrendous disease. Death, paralysis, life time respiratory problems
 
Yes, it was horrible. But it doesn't have to be a continual reminder to the survivors of how much they are to be pitied or reviled or feared - do you even get that that is a subconscious attitude about people with disabilities that needs to change - like, yesterday?

Stomp your feet because I said 'most' - whatever - but seriously thanks again for the cold advice. That was kind of you.
 
On facebook there is a picture of a grave stone from 19th century America. Twelve children from one family are listed;

The family apparently had three children (born 1856, 58, 61). Wendelan, born in 1861 died in 1862 of unknown cause.
In 1865 both his siblings, John (age 9) and Catherine (age 7) died. (disease?)

No births are recorded on the stone between 1861 and 1867.

From 1867 to 1884 nine more children were born.

Annie (born 1867) died in 1884 at age 17, along with Thomas (born '73, age 11), Elizabeth (born '74, age 10), Maurice (born '76, age 8) - that's four children in one year. But the family still has five (or more) children.

Then in 1890, disaster struck again:
Dennis (born 1870, now 20) died; Jeremiah ('72, age 19) died; Ida ('78, age 12); Walter ('80, age 10); Sadie (born '82, age 8) died.

Except for the first baby born and died within a year (+ or -), the deaths are clustered. Three bad years. Two children in 1865; Four children in 1884; Five children in 1890. Can you imagine the anguish those parents felt? I had no doubt that they loved their children as much as I loved mine. Can you imagine sitting by their beds, mopping their foreheads, trying to spoon broth into their bodies, and watching them die?

Since the pattern seems to have been to have a child approximately every two years, I only hope that between 1861 and 1867 there were one or two children who survived to adulthood and were not listed on this stone. Dennis and Jeremiah almost made it.

I wonder if anyone has checked the other stones in that cemetery. How many other children died in 1865, '84, and '90?
 
I agree that survivors of polio should not be pitied or not treated as whole people. They arent. I have never heard anyone speakof people with mobility issues as reviled.

And people overcome a variety of challenges. Live productive, happy lives

But that in no way should stop us from remembering a terrible disease. The terrible cost to individuals and families as lives changed , sometimes forever. The destruction , morbidity and mortality from polio was significant. And do everrything we can to prevent future damage

The damage from infectious disease in terms of mortality and morbidity is significant

It is people who choose to think of them as innocuous little diseases that cause no real issues feed the anti vaccine fantasy


You yourself said that your CP is a result of damage you sustained at birth, or perhaps during your neonatal period.

It is part of you and part of who you are.

But that doesn't mean that we should stop trying to prevent all infant morbidity. To prevent all cases of CP that we can

Medicine should do everything it can

Just like we should do everything we can to stop the spread of infectious diseases
 
Seeler said:
On facebook there is a picture of a grave stone from 19th century America. Twelve children from one family are listed;

The family apparently had three children (born 1856, 58, 61). Wendelan, born in 1861 died in 1862 of unknown cause.
In 1865 both his siblings, John (age 9) and Catherine (age 7) died. (disease?)

No births are recorded on the stone between 1861 and 1867.

From 1867 to 1884 nine more children were born.

Annie (born 1867) died in 1884 at age 17, along with Thomas (born '73, age 11), Elizabeth (born '74, age 10), Maurice (born '76, age 8) - that's four children in one year. But the family still has five (or more) children.

Then in 1890, disaster struck again:
Dennis (born 1870, now 20) died; Jeremiah ('72, age 19) died; Ida ('78, age 12); Walter ('80, age 10); Sadie (born '82, age 8) died.

Except for the first baby born and died within a year (+ or -), the deaths are clustered. Three bad years. Two children in 1865; Four children in 1884; Five children in 1890. Can you imagine the anguish those parents felt? I had no doubt that they loved their children as much as I loved mine. Can you imagine sitting by their beds, mopping their foreheads, trying to spoon broth into their bodies, and watching them die?

Since the pattern seems to have been to have a child approximately every two years, I only hope that between 1861 and 1867 there were one or two children who survived to adulthood and were not listed on this stone. Dennis and Jeremiah almost made it.

I wonder if anyone has checked the other stones in that cemetery. How many other children died in 1865, '84, and '90?
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Seeler, that's enough. It's horrible. Parents get your kids vaccinated.

There are children dying all over the world still. While for us it's "look how far we've come" their kids still die, have been all along, and we don't care. There has been plague after plague and if we know what's coming and can vaccinate then vaccinate. Enough said.
 
Walking through old cemeteries is a lesson on health care.

The flu epidemic in toronto , in about 26 i think. My grandfather died that year and his grave is surrounded by graves of young kids.

We take medicine for granted. We get sick, we get pills , we get better.

The years of pneumonia being a death sentence, no antibiotics.
 
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