I have never heard of this as a possibility - I'd like to know more.
I don't vaccinate my child because it's my right to determine which diseases come back
- Thread starter chansen
- Start date
Welcome to Wondercafe2!
A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!
I have never heard of this as a possibility - I'd like to know more.
@Justme when Pinga used the term she said "when people get their lives back from being crippled" in that instance it demeans the person in the sense that implies they don't have a life worth living if they're "crippled" - their life was not lost their situation changed. Now, a lot of people adapt to their circumstances that can't be fixed and their lives are equally valuable one way or the other. It is always better to describe the effects of the condition than to use words that unfairly label. For example "a person with a broken knee" or a "person with a mobility impairment" or "person who uses crutches" or a person who recovered from hip surgery.
Crippled is just as demeaning as retarded - and we are careful not to use retarded now when describing people. Crippled is the same thing - except when used by people with physical disabilities themselves to empower/ disarm the word's ability to hurt.
Crippled is just as demeaning as retarded - and we are careful not to use retarded now when describing people. Crippled is the same thing - except when used by people with physical disabilities themselves to empower/ disarm the word's ability to hurt.
Last edited:
@Kimmio yes I agree about what you quoted but I would have no problem with someone saying it was a crippling injury.
People still say retarded all the time when they think something is "stupid" - that's so retarded - there is a woman on my facebook page who says that all the time - I messaged her and explained why that was a harmful expression and she took great offence and told me that she didn't mean anything by it, just that the situation was so retarded. I guess people could say something mean-spirited like "What are you a cripple?" but that is true of any disease (and people say it about schizophrenia all the time - what are you schizo? Or if they are really clean - I'm so OCD. Or if they have a lot of energy or distractable - it's my ADD showing - I don't like it because it undervalues my experience but used in the correct circumstances I wouldn't eschew a label). And we all laughed at Arnold in Kindergarten Cop when he had a headache - "It's not a tuma"
People still say retarded all the time when they think something is "stupid" - that's so retarded - there is a woman on my facebook page who says that all the time - I messaged her and explained why that was a harmful expression and she took great offence and told me that she didn't mean anything by it, just that the situation was so retarded. I guess people could say something mean-spirited like "What are you a cripple?" but that is true of any disease (and people say it about schizophrenia all the time - what are you schizo? Or if they are really clean - I'm so OCD. Or if they have a lot of energy or distractable - it's my ADD showing - I don't like it because it undervalues my experience but used in the correct circumstances I wouldn't eschew a label). And we all laughed at Arnold in Kindergarten Cop when he had a headache - "It's not a tuma"
When Pinga said it she had no issue with thinking of it as a way to describe the person "a crippled old man", she said. And if we use the world loosely that's how it gets applied. Cripple has just as negative connotations as retard. Especially when applied to a person. Cripple the engine transmition, retard the flames - not so much.
I try not to say "It's because of my CP." "My CP is showing." I say "It's because the damn curb is too high."
When I locate it solely with me, I feel I demean myself.
@Justme
I try not to say "It's because of my CP." "My CP is showing." I say "It's because the damn curb is too high."
When I locate it solely with me, I feel I demean myself.@Justme
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
You're talking about "viral shedding", and this can only possibly happen with "live" vaccines, and not even all live vaccines. The MMR does not cause shedding, for example. In live vaccines, what you're receiving is a weakened dose of the virus. These mostly do not make you sick. In those instances where people get a little bit sick, they are a little bit sick with a weaker form of the disease, and you have to go out of your way to catch it in the window when it is communicable. The Rotavirus vaccine can be shed through the stool of an infant who has no symptoms.
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/10vol36/acs-4/index-eng.php
Contrast this with getting the full-blown disease from the unvaccinated. It's not a contest.
My friend who we're living with right now has a cold. I don't know what virus is causing her symptoms. I'm not enthusiastic about the prospect of catching it and neither is my husband who just recovered from serious respiratory illness requiring hospitalization. But - it is what it is. She covers her mouth when coughing, we wash our hands, and there's not much else we can do about it. If we do catch it we're not going to sue her. If it's the flu - and I was denied the flu shot when I asked for it this year - we're still not going to sue.
revsdd
Well-Known Member
I am pro-vaccine, and I drink tap water, although the odd time I'll buy a bottle if I'm driving. In fact, to go one step further, I'm one of those truly dangerous people who keep used water bottles from the few times I buy the stuff and fill them with tap water and reuse them. Very convenient, and it hasn't hurt me so far.
Pinga
Room for All
If you are going to quote me, please quote me in context.
The reference was to people with hips and knees which seriously impact mobility, they have crippling conditions and yes, when surgery makes them 95% returned to full mobility it does give them their life back as they knew it. My dad was able to golf and bowl and walk and dance. So yes, it is their life back. Not yours. Not mine. But theirs.
No one was called a cripple, let alone in a derogatory sense.
And yes, i once sent an email to a CIO who used retarded in a derogatory sense. He not only listened but spoke to his mistake. I get the importance of words as labels. This was not used in that way
The reference was to people with hips and knees which seriously impact mobility, they have crippling conditions and yes, when surgery makes them 95% returned to full mobility it does give them their life back as they knew it. My dad was able to golf and bowl and walk and dance. So yes, it is their life back. Not yours. Not mine. But theirs.
No one was called a cripple, let alone in a derogatory sense.
And yes, i once sent an email to a CIO who used retarded in a derogatory sense. He not only listened but spoke to his mistake. I get the importance of words as labels. This was not used in that way
Pinga
Room for All
Here is the smallpox article written by my Grandmother and retyped by me
https://pingadohtor.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/smallpox-by-alice-m-pollock/
https://pingadohtor.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/smallpox-by-alice-m-pollock/
Yes. It was. But now there are still people living with it who can lead as full lives as anyone else - that needs to be kept in perspective, too. They are not degenerate/ lesser people.
I believe the polio vaccine was stopped here before I was born even though there were people in the world still getting the disease. It was determined it wasn't necessary anymore. We knew families through the physio services I used that had kids affected by Thalidomide. And, my dad stayed ahead of the curve, reading the latest updates, about necessary and unnecessary vaccinations. That wasn't long after Thalidomide some doctors must've been cautious not to over-medicate/ vaccinate, as well. I was born with CP as it is ("how terrible, dreadful, frightening - man the decks and stop this horrible affliction!") have mobility issues that can look similar to polio.
Last edited:
You said it was okay to refer to the definition in the context of "a crippled old man". No different from "the crippled girl". What about people who never really experienced life without a mobility impairment - is their condition crippling, or is it attitudes and assumptions?
Why is the name Alice Pollock so familiar to me? (sorry off-topic). I had a prof at CEGEP named Al Pollock - he was awesome so maybe that's where I'm getting it from.
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Nobody called polio victims "degenerate/lesser people". Nobody. Not one person. Did not happen.
FFS, nobody was labeling people as "cripples". I wasn't making fun of handicapped people (Seeler, I know). That doesn't even make any f***ing sense. Nobody was denigrating polio victims.
I do not know how to make this any more clear. Arguing against an imaginary deity takes up enough of my time. Arguing against imaginary insults is nauseating. I promise that if I do insult you, you will not have to use your powers of inference.
I never said Pinga did it on purpose. I pointed out subconscious attitudes and why people need to think about what language they use when describing an impairment in relation to a person. As people have said before - it negates the personal pain or belittlement a person feels when those words are used in a derogatory way.
As for polio - pictures used to shock people into seeing how horrible it was negate that there is another side to it - people live with it, have for 50 years, and that's not so horrible. That's a great development. That's the non-medical social approach that is hard to advocate when continually up against the idea that there's a 'normal' way to be human or an 'abnormal' way to be human - or less than human. And those ideas get deeply entrenched into us because we so fear and hate people on a subconscious level who have some kind of visible 'disfigurement'. Either that, or we pity them.
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
You can accept people with CP, polio, and even f***ing Tourette's, without advocating anti-vaccine positions that cause even more diseases and conditions. I can't believe I even have to write that. You accept the people. You fight the diseases with everything you've got, and the best damn weapon in our entire arsenal are the vaccines that stop transmission in the first place.
People who are against vaccines are so amazingly in favour of people with medical conditions, that they apparently want more people to have them. It's one of the most tragically flawed positions in history. It's like throwing on 2nd and goal from the one yard line.
People who are against vaccines are so amazingly in favour of people with medical conditions, that they apparently want more people to have them. It's one of the most tragically flawed positions in history. It's like throwing on 2nd and goal from the one yard line.
I'm not against vaccinations, things to limit the possibility of impairment - god knows it's easier to be seen as 'normal' than not to - it's easier to not have pain and fatigue. But I am against the shock and pity tactic of getting people to do things to limit it "get the vaccine or heaven forbid you could turn out like this" - moreso now than I used to be because I didn't recognize it.
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The anti-vaxxers are playing the same damn card. Autism being the primary one.
If you really worried about "shock and pity" tactics, then you would have come out against the anti-vaxxers long ago. I do not recall those posts from you. First and foremost, you are anti-science. You will use the anti-pity argument only when it suits your narrative.
I'm not anti-science. But that, IMO, also includes the social sciences for a fuller perspective.
I never said it's right to lay the responsibility for autism at the feet of those who vaccinated their kids or the medical profession that was only trying to protect kids from something else - even if the vaccine did cause autism (which most evidence says it didn't). I do think that we have to stay mindful that drug companies are for-profit entities and that there is always a possibility that that could potentially colour their ethics - it's something to be aware of.
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Aw hells no. I post a picture of what could be a gymnasium full of iron lungs, and you're "against shock and pity tactics". Anti-vaxxers have been using fear of autism for years, and you "never said it's right".
I get rebuked by pointing out what life was often like pre-vaccines, but when it's pointed out that anti-vaxxers have been using fear of autism for years, regardless of truth, you suddenly are less demonstrative. That's crap.
I get rebuked by pointing out what life was often like pre-vaccines, but when it's pointed out that anti-vaxxers have been using fear of autism for years, regardless of truth, you suddenly are less demonstrative. That's crap.