The Church Vs. The State Civil Disobedience

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PERSECUTION of Christians in China is as severe now as during Mao’s Cultural Revolution, and is expected to worsen in the coming year, owing to growing intolerance in Hong Kong and increasing digital surveillance in churches, a charity has warned.

Release International, which supports persecuted Christians, said that China had been tightening its crackdown on the Chinese Church under the cover of the Covid-19 pandemic (News, 22 January).

And I am on their side.
 
It is ridiculous to consider that the organization (The Church and Christianity) that has been so active in oppressing through the centuries would now be seen as being oppressed.

The Church sadly is the oppressor, not the oppressed. There is no war on Christianity.
 
Northwind said:
The Church sadly is the oppressor, not the oppressed.
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Which oppressor church congregation do you favor attending then?

Have you attended in person service recently with a church community of oppressors?

This thread is about 'church' communities and their leaders advocating for stopping the lockdowns ... and putting that into practice by opening up their 'church' buildings to their members and non members that would wish to participate ... in person.

Instead of lambasting those people with disrespect based on the assumption that they are 'superspreaders' ... provide some evidence that they are.


I have just read this all the way through.

A Matter of Faith: a Gathering of Aboriginal Christians​

It ends like this ...

“What we're looking for is a vision, some sense of what it will take, whether it's Aboriginal or native spirituality or Christianity or a mixture, a combination or other faiths. I think that fragmentation is really worrisome. It's worrisome in terms of asking CSC to fund a whole lot of different programs, it's worrisome in terms of what it does to the very people who are in the system and it's worrisome within the communities and the kind of conflict it's created. But I just raised that as a concern of mine.”
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“What was going on is certainly a legitimate question. On the one hand there are a lot of negative stuff and still is a lot of negative stuff today for which Indians are responsible and no one else. A lot of it tends on the part of the well intentioned and even on the part of some enlightened people to change and to help our people. That said, you can't write off the whole Indian traditional experience because of the abuses. If that is something that we must do, then we must also write off a large percentage of ministers, preachers, priests, nuns and rabbis for the same reason. All that is testimony to the human condition confirming that you find imperfection everywhere. The sooner in life you can make your peace and accept that humans are weak then you recognize that there are means and ways of addressing the weaknesses and helping people strive for better.”
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“I think our policies have to address what is happening and that needs are changing all the time. It's the goals that should guide us. Meetings like this are part of the process that gives us an opportunity to discuss what has happened to us. We have to have a willingness to move forward. We want to have programs in our communities, schools and in our churches that invite people at all levels, and from all the diversity in or communities, to learn from each other.
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Faith in life needs to be practiced in society. It is how to be open, and responsive and listening to each other. We have to have educational programs designed for schools, public schools, kindergarten schools, high schools, where all youth can experience diversity and community and learn to live with care and gentleness. We have to train the staff in all our institutions, prisons, penitentiaries, hospitals, nursing care places to be sensitive to people.”
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Another participant summed up his views about the way forward by saying,

“So, I come here seeking the same thing we all seek, knowledge and understanding and help for our own journeys. And if these journeys are going to be with our people as we leave this building we must be prepared to take the blows with it. Not just the blows, but the misunderstandings that will come because this is Aboriginal Christianity. Well, you know what, your problems - take them up with the Boss because we're all in sales, he's the only one in management and promotions. Thank you.”
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Another comment by a participant shows that humour in a different light.

“Prison and jail officials in southern Manitoba had to confiscate Bibles recently, particularly in Headingly Jail. Smoking is not permitted and the fine paper in some of those Bibles is perfect for rolling cigarettes. Here's my favourite comment on that from a prisoner in Headingly Jail: 'I smoked my way through Matthew. I smoked my way through Mark. I smoked my way through Luke. But when I got to John, I found that God loves me and I gave my heart to Jesus Christ.'”
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Perhaps Pastor Coates will become a better 'Christian' for having 'served some time in jail' ... it has been known to happen. I do know that he was provided with a Bible ... perhaps he will smoke his way through it or start a contraband rolling paper business for prophets. God only knows.
 
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Ritafee said:
This thread is about 'church' communities and their leaders advocating for stopping the lockdowns ... and putting that into practice by opening up their 'church' buildings to their members and non members that would wish to participate ... in person.
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You made the suggestion or statement that Christians are being persecuted with these restrictions. I disagree.
 
Northwind said:
You made the suggestion or statement that Christians are being persecuted with these restrictions. I disagree.
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No you all made statements that I said christian churches were being persecuted ... I don't think I ever referred to persecution as my own personal assessment of what was going on here in Canada. Christians have been persecuted in other parts of the world for sure ... here in Canada christians basically do what they are told to do by the State that they are incorporated to ... to avoid persecution. Pastor Coates has said more than once that he does not have personal experience of being persecuted because it was easy to avoid in Canada. And then he tested that theory ... and he landed in jail ... for refusing to lie around the conditions of his bail. He could have said that he would not 'do what he got arrested for in the first place' but that would have been a lie ... and he chose not to lie to get out of jail. I never said persecution and neither did he ... misscarriage of justice maybe. Churches in B.C. not being open does seem a bit discriminatory ... compared to the other venues that are allowed to be open.
 
I'm just saying what it appears. At worst the churches (and the rest of us) are being inconvenienced. This is temporary.
 
Northwind said:
I'm just saying what it appears. At worst the churches (and the rest of us) are being inconvenienced. This is temporary.
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It appears that some people prefer not to be inconvenienced by looking at the big picture ... suicides drug overdoses food shortages untreated mental illnesses and other collateral damages too numerous to list in this short paragraph. Collateral damages that are not anything resembling temporary ... generational consequences one might even dare to guess. Willful ignorance is not blissful.
 
Ritafee said:
It appears that some people prefer not to be inconvenienced by looking at the big picture ... suicides drug overdoses food shortages untreated mental illnesses and other collateral damages too numerous to list in this short paragraph. Collateral damages that are not anything resembling temporary ... generational consequences one might even dare to guess. Willful ignorance is not blissful.
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And what about suicides, mental health issues, addictions etc related to the cult of busy, disconnections because of real world pressures, etc. The collateral damages of our crazy world before the pandemic. All those things existed before and are related to our disconnected capitalist society.

It's not either/or, black and white as you suggest.
 
Ritafee said:
It appears that some people prefer not to be inconvenienced by looking at the big picture ... suicides drug overdoses food shortages untreated mental illnesses and other collateral damages too numerous to list in this short paragraph. Collateral damages that are not anything resembling temporary ... generational consequences one might even dare to guess. Willful ignorance is not blissful.
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What does this have to do with the church and state?
Again, Pastor Coates is NOT a martyr. He is simple behaving like a derriere du cheval.
 
Northwind said:
It's not either/or, black and white as you suggest.
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I suggest that the restrictions in the name of 'controlling only covid' are exacerbating
Northwind said:
All those things existed before and are related to our disconnected capitalist society.
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And the churches are essential in addressing a lot of issues that the capitalist society tends to not address if it cuts into overall profits.
 
Redbaron said:
What does this have to do with the church and state?
Again, Pastor Coates is NOT a martyr. He is simple behaving like a derriere du cheval.
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And what do you have to offer to this conversation that does not have you repeating over and over again your one liner.

We have already agreed that Pastor Coates is NOT a martyr.

And now we are talking about civil disobedience ... coming from some of the churches.
 
Ritafee said:
We have already agreed that Pastor Coates is NOT a martyr
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I missed that. I don't remember seeing you agree with much in here.

I'm glad to see some agreement.

Ritafee said:
And now we are talking about civil disobedience ... coming from some of the churches
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Churches do and should have a role in civil disobedience. There are notable examples such as in the late 60's re: racial segregation, the 80's re: same sex relationships, etc and sadly those two issues are being fought today still.

How do we have a discussion about "civil disobedience" in relation to holding large gatherings during a pandemic when we don't have a common (or close) understanding of 'pandemic' and 'public health response'?

To me what some see as civil disobedience of churches holding large gatherings right now comes from a place of selfishness, not concern for others. I see civil disobedience or similar actions as being something that is concerned for the wellbeing of the community. I don't believe that holding large gatherings right now accomplishes that.
 
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