Can You Be Rich and Be a Christian?

[BetteTheRed]

He never charges usury on loans, takes no interest,

It's interesting that this comes from Ezekiel. Jewish people are not allowed to charge interest...to other Jews. But they may to Gentiles. Early Christians were forbidden to charge interest, so the Jewish people, by default, "invented" the banking system we know today.

Usury is always the main cause of economic collapse. Usury is the root cause of business cycles…of rapid expansion and rapid contraction…of Bull and Bear Markets…

Well, no, not exactly. "Interest" is what brings money into being. If you get no ROI for loaning your money, you put it in a sock under your mattress, and it may as well not be money until/unless it is circulated.

 

[Waterfall]

Well, no, not exactly. "Interest" is what brings money into being. If you get no ROI for loaning your money, you put it in a sock under your mattress, and it may as well not be money until/unless it is circulated.

Not necessarily IMO, if you invest in people through an interest free loan, you may create a more successful society that is able to get out of that debt faster, create jobs that can pay their workers higher wages, or people may just be happier rather than falling prey to loan sharks when times are tough. It may not benefit a rich person abundantly financially but enough should be good.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Not necessarily IMO, if you invest in people through an interest free loan, you may create a more successful society that is able to get out of that debt faster, create jobs that can pay their workers higher wages, or people may just be happier rather than falling prey to loan sharks when times are tough. It may not benefit a rich person abundantly financially but enough should be good.

Well, yes, unless human nature around "money" changes, I think we're stuck with "interest".

You see, if you loan your $100 to someone, interest-free, and with no time frame, nor penalty, for repayment, your chances of getting it back in any sort of time is about zero. To whit, I offer two examples from recent experience:

i) If you charge 5 cents for a plastic bag, people will try to cram three bags of groceries into one. If you don't charge them, they'll ask for five bags for four items.
ii) If you get your quarter back when you return your grocery cart, carts stay neat. Don't require that deposit/return? Carts all over the parking lot.

 

[Ritafee]

human nature around "money"

 

[Waterfall]

Well, yes, unless human nature around "money" changes, I think we're stuck with "interest".

You see, if you loan your $100 to someone, interest-free, and with no time frame, nor penalty, for repayment, your chances of getting it back in any sort of time is about zero. To whit, I offer two examples from recent experience:

i) If you charge 5 cents for a plastic bag, people will try to cram three bags of groceries into one. If you don't charge them, they'll ask for five bags for four items.
ii) If you get your quarter back when you return your grocery cart, carts stay neat. Don't require that deposit/return? Carts all over the parking lot.

Interest free can have a contract or time frame for repayment....IMO....it's not a gift, although I think if one loans money to a very close family member (such as our kids) it often turns into a gift.....better to accept that from the outset than lose a family member IMO.....if we can't afford to give that money away don't do it IMO.
I agree with what you're saying about the grocery bags and carts.....maybe a loan could include a clause that once it is paid off that they give something back to society, like volunteer or something. I don't know....just thinking out loud here.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Well, Rita, let's re-frame this.

Would you agree that it appears to be a human characteristic to like to trade for things we would like? Otherwise, we'd all be equally good shaman, hunters, cooks, tailors, etc., and be completely self-sufficient unto our own needs.

At its root, a simple money system is just systematized barter. Instead of you giving the doctor eggs for a treatment of some sort, you give her money, and she buys the kinds/amounts of eggs she wants when she wants them. It's a way to get around the problem that you might be selling something that I need, but I may not produce anything that you need, right now, anyway, and possibly never.

 

[Waterfall]

Well, Rita, let's re-frame this.

Would you agree that it appears to be a human characteristic to like to trade for things we would like? Otherwise, we'd all be equally good shaman, hunters, cooks, tailors, etc., and be completely self-sufficient unto our own needs.

At its root, a simple money system is just systematized barter. Instead of you giving the doctor eggs for a treatment of some sort, you give her money, and she buys the kinds/amounts of eggs she wants when she wants them. It's a way to get around the problem that you might be selling something that I need, but I may not produce anything that you need, right now, anyway, and possibly never.

Not sure if you're talking to me or Rita.....but if we're talking usury, it's about high interest rates for loans.

 

[BetteTheRed]

But "high" is whatever the "state" deems is high. Interest rates in the teens and 20s percentages were common for second mortgages in the 80s. Allowed by government. It's a bit meaningless, unless you implicitly trust the Bank of Wherever you Live to always make the right decisions.

 

[Luce NDs]

Money should not be tied to prevailing interest rates but inflation ... what deregulators use to screw the lesser investors out of their monis .. by overriding the interest with inflationary factors that reduce the common folk to practically nothing ...

This may be a statistical review of available data ... referred to by the irrational as falls Nuits ... Newton's Shadow on momentum of the markets!

The market cannot be controlled as avarice runs it as Monis ... lea Sta their concerns ... compared to war current seize ...great booty?

 

[unsafe]

interesting read -------

Ancient Babylonian Banking and Our Modern Financial System

Ancient Babylonian Banking and Our Modern Financial System | SchiffGold

schiffgold.com

 

[GeoFee]

My hope is that one day you will stop accusing others. Just as Jesus forgave those who put him on the cross. I also hope that one day we will be able to converse as neighbours and not as accusers.

Like Your accusing me here ---and judging me as well I might add ---OH how easy it is GeoFee-------you should really take your own advice -----and stop accusing and judging as well ---

Hi unsafe

I had hoped only to give you opportunity to consider your communication style. Even so, I admit that I may have crossed a boundary and caused you offence. For this I apologize.

George

 

[unsafe]

GeoFee -----You need to understand that I love you as a person GeoFee ----You are a very kind --thoughtful and caring individual -----We are to Agape all people -------that is what True Christians are to do ------but we do not have to like or condone the actions of all people ------Jesus Agaped the woman who was caught in adultery ----but he didn't condone or like her behaviour ------

My criticism is not with you personally ---it is with your quoting of scripture here -----and your accusations of me accusing others ------and by doing so you are doing what you say to me not to do --- My hope is that one day you will stop accusing others. ----

You could have said ----My hope is WE will stop accusing others. ----you need to include yourself in your statement here as you are accusing me -------

Well I have to say GeoFee I believe we both have different communication styles in our writing and that is OK by me --but just taking God's word and miss quoting it or using it and not giving the verse # and Chapter it was taking from is ignorant as the person reading the post may want to check out the context of the scripture being used in that post ---

So GeoFee -----we both have been critical of each other at one time or another and so I see us both at fault for this and so it is not just you that needs to apologize ----I also need to do the same to you -----so I am apologizing to you as well for any personal criticism I have or may have bestowed on you ------and i accept your apology ------


My hope GeoFee is that we both will be more tolerant of each others style of writings and use God's word to glorify Him not us ------ and be respectful in our quoting the verse and chapter of scripture we are using in our posts ------ ---You have a Great Day -----

Now back to thread topic ------

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

It's interesting that this comes from Ezekiel. Jewish people are not allowed to charge interest...to other Jews. But they may to Gentiles. Early Christians were forbidden to charge interest, so the Jewish people, by default, "invented" the banking system we know today.



Well, no, not exactly. "Interest" is what brings money into being. If you get no ROI for loaning your money, you put it in a sock under your mattress, and it may as well not be money until/unless it is circulated.

In my family, this interest free loan is made by the BOM= Bank Of Mom. Other alternative initiatives also invest into alternative micro credits and the investors are getting very little interest. Because, to be honest, those few percent one gets for one’s savings really don’t add up to much so one might as well put the money into beneficial projects.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Yeah, my parents did that for me, and I've done a little of it for my kids, as I could. I also put a little money in kiva when I can.

 

[Ritafee]

Well, Rita, let's re-frame this.

Well, Bette, I have been trying to do that since the first day I logged into this forum.

Sacred Economics: Introduction

The following is from Sacred Economics: Money, Gift, and Society in the Age of Transition Return to the Sacred Economics content page here.

Introduction

The purpose of this book is to make human economy and money as sacred as everything else in the universe.

Today we associate money with the profane, and for good reason. If anything is sacred in this world, it is surely not money. Money seems to be the enemy of our better instincts, as is clear every time the thought “I can’t afford to” blocks an impulse toward kindness or generosity. Money seems to be the enemy of beauty, as the disparaging term “a sellout” demonstrates. Money seems to be the enemy of every worthy social and political reform, as corporate power steers legislation toward the aggrandizement of its own profits. Money seems to be destroying the earth, as we pillage the oceans, the forests, the soil, and every species to feed a greed that knows no end.

From at least the time that Jesus threw the money changers from the temple, we have sensed that there is something unholy about money. When politicians seek money instead of the public good, we call them corrupt. Adjectives like “dirty” and “filthy” naturally describe money. Monks are supposed to have little to do with it: “You cannot serve God and Mammon.”

At the same time, no one can deny that money has a mysterious, magical quality as well, the power to alter human behavior and coordinate human activity. From ancient times thinkers have marveled at the ability of a mere mark to confer this power upon a disk of metal or slip of paper. Unfortunately, looking at the world around us, it is hard to avoid concluding that the magic of money is an evil magic.

Read Online - Sacred Economics | Charles Eisenstein

Welcome to the HTML version of Sacred Economics. The full version is here in English, along with full and partial translations into other languages. More translated material comes on-line all the time, so check back often. Sacred Economics The full

sacred-economics.com

 

[Ritafee]

Not sure if you're talking to me or Rita.....but if we're talking usury, it's about high interest rates for loans.

Sacred Economics: Chapter 6, "The Economics of Usury" - Sacred Economics | Charles Eisenstein

The following chapter is from Sacred Economics: Money, Gift, and Society in the Age of Transition, available from EVOLVER EDITIONS/North Atlantic Books. Return to the Sacred Economics content page here. In spite of the holy promises of people to banish war once and for all,

sacred-economics.com

 

[Luce NDs]

There is currency and there is the currant mode to get rich quick ... perhaps a flit side of Ge Zeus word on Din Eire ... the racket of the psyche in a dark place ... shadowy personality development? Pal a' Din ... Oh Din ... then there's supposedly a new book coming on rages ...

Expect powerful rants and raves ... essential exchange? Emotional spirits ....

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

Well, Bette, I have been trying to do that since the first day I logged into this forum.

Sacred Economics: Introduction

The following is from Sacred Economics: Money, Gift, and Society in the Age of Transition Return to the Sacred Economics content page here.

Introduction

The purpose of this book is to make human economy and money as sacred as everything else in the universe.

Today we associate money with the profane, and for good reason. If anything is sacred in this world, it is surely not money. Money seems to be the enemy of our better instincts, as is clear every time the thought “I can’t afford to” blocks an impulse toward kindness or generosity. Money seems to be the enemy of beauty, as the disparaging term “a sellout” demonstrates. Money seems to be the enemy of every worthy social and political reform, as corporate power steers legislation toward the aggrandizement of its own profits. Money seems to be destroying the earth, as we pillage the oceans, the forests, the soil, and every species to feed a greed that knows no end.

From at least the time that Jesus threw the money changers from the temple, we have sensed that there is something unholy about money. When politicians seek money instead of the public good, we call them corrupt. Adjectives like “dirty” and “filthy” naturally describe money. Monks are supposed to have little to do with it: “You cannot serve God and Mammon.”

At the same time, no one can deny that money has a mysterious, magical quality as well, the power to alter human behavior and coordinate human activity. From ancient times thinkers have marveled at the ability of a mere mark to confer this power upon a disk of metal or slip of paper. Unfortunately, looking at the world around us, it is hard to avoid concluding that the magic of money is an evil magic.

Read Online - Sacred Economics | Charles Eisenstein

Welcome to the HTML version of Sacred Economics. The full version is here in English, along with full and partial translations into other languages. More translated material comes on-line all the time, so check back often. Sacred Economics The full

sacred-economics.com

The idea of running the economy on the basis resources and environmental and social impact is a good one. If the cost of things would reflect that, we would potentially waste less. I don’t have enough time to look into this whole book, how is he dealing with the human strive of greed?

 

[BetteTheRed]

It looks to be an interesting resource. There's a film that accompanies it; don't know which came first. That might be worth a look. Chapter 2 is entitled "Greed".

This is agreeing with my original statement that ultimately "usury" is any interest payment, unless you want an ever-increasing, inequality-ridden economic system.

 

[Luce NDs]

Greed is sometimes attached to the word avarice ... an alternate meaning is an urge to control all things ... freaking failures causing cracks in humanity ... broken peoples (folk or PAX)!

Imagine what happens when powerful collectives fail and become losers ... Luce as the pneumas? Spore of substitutionary smudges? Inky blotches ...

There is a psyche test built on that concept ... another test for those despising tests and claiming to be gross in their performance thereof!