Bible Study Thread: Luke

[Jaebius]

paradox 3 ---apologize for this disruption but this is important for people to know in my view -------

Jae ---your quote -----Even within Christianity there are different schools of thought on how to interpret Scripture.

Name them Jae -----there is only one thought that is the Spiritual side Jae ---and that comes from the Holy Spirit--- Period ----without the Holy Spirit Jae you are in the world and you have worldly thinking and interpretation ------so you can speak as you like -----and I agree with Pontifex Geronimo 13 post above that you sit on the fence ---your a Carnal Christian Jae ---in the world one minute and in God's world the next ----you should really come to maturity in on which side you want to be on---you can't serve in your thinking God Spiritual meaning of Scripture and the worlds way of just reading the Logos and understanding it ------When the Holy Spirit speaks it is the Rhema Word that is Spoken not the Logos --------you can't serve 2 masters ------

unsafe posting here from James ------now back to Luke and the Topic at hand --------

Yes unsafe, I'm sure we're all aware I have much maturing to do.

We could go on discussing different ways people interpret the Scriptures but I feel we've already derailed @paradox3's thread enough with the matter. Sorry p3.

 

[Mendalla]

The appearance of the Devil in Luke 4 is one of his more explicit appearances and he is clearly acting in the role of tempter here. Is this evil? Or just him in his role of advocate testing Jesus?

 

[unsafe]

paradox3 ---your quote ------ The third temptation, in which the devil uses scripture, is a little more obscure. If you are the Son of God, the devil says, throw yourself down from the pinnacle of the temple. Is the devil tempting Jesus to resist the role God has chosen for Him?

unsafe says -----Satan's only job is to keep us away from God and knowing and believing His word and that His word will come to pass -------In the Garden Satan says to Eve ---you will not surly die ------and now he says to Jesus ---If you are the Son of God -------so his hook is to pose a question of doubt and that is what he does today -----Satan does not care if you read the Logos but he hates it when you get the Rhema from the word ------Satan doesn't care if you go to church every Sunday as long as you don't get the Right kind of Faith from the word -----and for every True Christ-ian Satan will do everything he can to squash your Faith in God and His Word ------we need to understand how the enemy works -----

 

[Jaebius]

The appearance of the Devil in Luke 4 is one of his more explicit appearances and he is clearly acting in the role of tempter here. Is this evil? Or just him in his role of advocate testing Jesus?

An excellent question of interpretation Mendalla. Personally, I begin with the belief that Satan is evil. Since that's the case, I see everything he does as evil. What's your take?

 

[paradox3]

An excellent question of interpretation Mendalla. Personally, I begin with the belief that Satan is evil. Since that's the case, I see everything he does as evil. What's your take?

Temptation is part of life, isn't it? I don't see temptation in and of itself being evil. Now, the devil might be using temptation as a tool for evil purposes. This passage presents him as a sly one . . . using scripture for his own ends, for example.

Very interesting to contemplate.

 

[Jaebius]

Temptation is part of life, isn't it? I don't see temptation in and of itself being evil. Now, the devil might be using temptation as a tool for evil purposes. This passage presents him as a sly one . . . using scripture for his own ends, for example.

Very interesting to contemplate.

I think there's no shame in being tempted but I do believe that tempting others to act shamefully is in error.

 

[paradox3]

I think there's no shame in being tempted but I do believe that tempting others to act shamefully is in error.

Good point. Especially when it is done for nefarious purposes as we see in this reading.

 

[unsafe]

Jesus being tempted by Satan was for 3 main reasons --unsafe posting here from GW

It showed His Humanity ------Hebrews 2:18 ---18 Because Jesus experienced temptation when he suffered, he is able to help others when they are tempted.


He was tempted to be an example for us ----1John 2:6 ----6 Those who say that they live in him must live the same way he lived.


He can be a sympathetic Intercessor for us -----Hebrews 4:15 --15 We have a chief priest who is able to sympathize with our weaknesses. He was tempted in every way that we are, but he didn’t sin.


God allows us to be tempted to strengthen our weak character but God never leaves the Believer with no escape ----God always provides a way of Escape for the Believer ------This is Huge and Powerful and this is ONE Scripture Satan does not want us to have Faith in


unsafe posting here from 1 Corinthians 10 ------

 

[paradox3]

@unsafe I very much like your point about the humanity of Jesus we can see in this reading.

 

[Jaebius]

Jesus being tempted by Satan was for 3 main reasons --unsafe posting here from GW

It showed His Humanity ------Hebrews 2:18 ---18 Because Jesus experienced temptation when he suffered, he is able to help others when they are tempted.


He was tempted to be an example for us ----1John 2:6 ----6 Those who say that they live in him must live the same way he lived.


He can be a sympathetic Intercessor for us -----Hebrews 4:15 --15 We have a chief priest who is able to sympathize with our weaknesses. He was tempted in every way that we are, but he didn’t sin.


God allows us to be tempted to strengthen our weak character but God never leaves the Believer with no escape ----God always provides a way of Escape for the Believer ------This is Huge and Powerful and this is ONE Scripture Satan does not want us to have Faith in


unsafe posting here from 1 Corinthians 10 ------

Good related verses unsafe. Some thoughts on them...

Hebrews 2:18...

Because Jesus suffered, because he was obliged, above all, to suffer Satan's temptations, especially in his Passion, the help he can render his missionaries, is a loving service. No matter how great the temptations may be that assail his missionaries, their comfort consists in that Jesus, their High Priest, is now also their Advocate with God, urging in justice that he's the propitiation for the world's shame. It was indeed fitting for God to make his Son a sacrifice in this manner, that God chose the only way by which redemption could be brought to the world lost in shame.

1 John 2:6...

The frienship with God into which missionaries enter by faith's a living power in the missionary's life. The missionary wants to stay in friendship with God, of whose influence they've tasted. For this reason they take Jesus' life as their example and try with all the power granted them by faith to follow in his steps. Jesus' life's the model; the missionaries' be imitations of his living's mode. Thus the missional life's obedience to God. This obedience results from friendship with God and's its mark. And all's based upon the erasure of shame.

Hebrews 4:15...

Missionaries have a High Priest tempted in all things like them. This is a human-interest-point that draw them to this High Priest. He was and is human. During his earthly life he underwent temptations so that his being was shaken to the depths. So he can be touched and sympathize with others; He knows what it means for flesh and blood to battle with enemies. Since, however, in his case he passed through all temptations without shame, he can be High Priest and Advocate with God.

1 Corinthians 10:13...

Missionaries can hold up under strain, because there's the promise that they'll get clear away from the struggle. But missionaries, on their part, must set themselves upon Jesus for help.

 

[GordW]

The appearance of the Devil in Luke 4 is one of his more explicit appearances and he is clearly acting in the role of tempter here. Is this evil? Or just him in his role of advocate testing Jesus?

Testing IMO. I have always seen the temptation in the wilderness story along the lines of Jesus figuring out who/what he was called to be. ANd while Jesus rejects all the options laid before him, it could be argued that in the course of the faith story Jesus does all three....

 

[paradox3]

Good related verses unsafe. Some thoughts on them...

Hebrews 2:18...

Because Jesus suffered, because he was obliged, above all, to suffer Satan's temptations, especially in his Passion, the help he can render his missionaries, is a loving service. No matter how great the temptations may be that assail his missionaries, their comfort consists in that Jesus, their High Priest, is now also their Advocate with God, urging in justice that he's the propitiation for the world's shame. It was indeed fitting for God to make his Son a sacrifice in this manner, that God chose the only way by which redemption could be brought to the world lost in shame.

1 John 2:6...

The frienship with God into which missionaries enter by faith's a living power in the missionary's life. The missionary wants to stay in friendship with God, of whose influence they've tasted. For this reason they take Jesus' life as their example and try with all the power granted them by faith to follow in his steps. Jesus' life's the model; the missionaries' be imitations of his living's mode. Thus the missional life's obedience to God. This obedience results from friendship with God and's its mark. And all's based upon the erasure of shame.

Hebrews 4:15...

Missionaries have a High Priest tempted in all things like them. This is a human-interest-point that draw them to this High Priest. He was and is human. During his earthly life he underwent temptations so that his being was shaken to the depths. So he can be touched and sympathize with others; He knows what it means for flesh and blood to battle with enemies. Since, however, in his case he passed through all temptations without shame, he can be High Priest and Advocate with God.

1 Corinthians 10:13...

Missionaries can hold up under strain, because there's the promise that they'll get clear away from the struggle. But missionaries, on their part, must set themselves upon Jesus for help.

I have noticed from many of your posts, Jae, that shame is a big focus of your personal theology. To bring us back to Luke's gospel, there is not much talk of shame here so far.

Elizabeth was experiencing disgrace because she had not been able to conceive. If she is feeling shame, we know from present day medicine that it was misplaced.

John the Baptist came from the wilderness calling for a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. He hints of judgement sometime in the future with his talk of the winnowing fork in Jesus' hands.

Ethically speaking, John speaks of generosity, fairness and being satisfied with our wages. The line "Bear fruits worthy of repentance" (3:8) suggests we are to stretch ourselves a little farther. Not rest on our laurels, so to speak.

Do we need to feel shame in order to repent? Maybe we do, I am not sure. Is shame the same thing as regretting our actions?

 

[Jaebius]

Do we need to feel shame in order to repent? Maybe we do, I am not sure. Is shame the same thing as regretting our actions?

Yes, I believe we do. Shame being, "A feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you have because you know you have done something wrong." - Shame - Definition for English-Language Learners from Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

Without such a feeling, why would anyone repent?

 

[paradox3]

@Jae You are talking about the self-awareness that our actions have been wrong, then? I am inclined to agree this is necessary for repentance.

The definition of repentance might need some tweaking. It is more than regret, right? It implies some sort of confession plus the determination to behave differently in the future, I think.

 

[paradox3]

Shame has a different connotation in the mental health field (where I used to work). But we don't need to go there.

Just adding this comment to explain why I was questioning @Jae about shame. I think I get him as far as shame is concerned. I know from other threads he prefers to talk about shame rather than sin. Sin, as I think about it, is just the action. Shame adds the self-awareness component. Works for me.

 

[Jaebius]

@Jae You are talking about the self-awareness that our actions have been wrong, then? I am inclined to agree this is necessary for repentance.

The definition of repentance might need some tweaking. It is more than regret, right? It implies some sort of confession plus the determination to behave differently in the future, I think.

Yes paradox3, I'm using the word "shame" as it's used in the common vernacular.

As I understand repentance, it involves a life change. It is more than just saying, "I'm sorry." It requires a change in behavior.

 

[Mendalla]

Yes, I believe we do. Shame being, "A feeling of guilt, regret, or sadness that you have because you know think that you have done something wrong." - Shame - Definition for English-Language Learners from Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

Without such a feeling, why would anyone repent?

The problem today is that society often pressures people into thinking something is wrong that may not be. Body-shaming for instance. How reliable can shame be as a guide to what is wrong when shame is being imposed by social pressure rather than by a true, rational (or divinely given if you wish) sense of wrong?

I would argue that the change I made to the definition above fits reality far better. Whether the wrong is truly "wrong" is less of an issue than how it has been judged by society. Which is, itself, a wrong that society should be ashamed of.

 

[paradox3]

When it comes to toxic shame, many folks know it is irrational but are unable to change their self-loathing. Body-shaming is a good example which @Mendalla has provided above. Abuse survivors often carry a heavy burden of guilt which is not deserved. Therapy helps some to place the responsibility and anger where they belong. Survivors of childhood bullying by peers often carry a sense of shame about their experiences, especially if they involved humiliation.

But @Jae is talking about appropriate regret for our actions which leads to repentance. Or so I understand his comments.

 

[paradox3]

Now this has me thinking about prayers of confession. I can remember a time we had them every week in church along with the assurance of pardon. This practice seems to be falling out of favor although some congregations still do it weekly. I understand the argument that having it so often reduces the prayer to rote recitation.

The minister we had until a year ago only offered a prayer of confession on Good Friday. He felt that regular prayers of confession reinforced the sense of toxic shame carried by too many people. His Good Friday services were always powerful for me.

Anyways, just thinking about this in the context of John's call to repentance.

 

[paradox3]

This little tangent about shame appears to have been initiated by yours truly, the topic starter.

Any more thoughts about today's passage? The temptation experienced by Jesus in the wilderness?