TRUMP - Some people think......... How do you feel?

[Graeme Decarie]

The same arguments could be used to destroy any political ideas I have ever heard of. There are few ideologies more cruel and destructive than capitalism. It has murdered, starved, enslaved millions for some centuries now. So you think we should forbid it? I think the Baptist church should be forbidden. It has spread its shallow ideas all over the world, distracting people from dealing with the real problems that face them. I think that both Conservatism and Liberalism have been enormously damaging. (and I'd be prepared to defend that in a debate.
Limitations on free speech were very popular in nazi Germany. I'm not sure we should copy that.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

And I don't agree. I think we sometimes need to take a side and take a stand on it.

 

[Graeme Decarie]

Of course we should take a side and stand on it. Where do you get the idea it's more democratic to forbid others to do the same thing?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The same arguments could be used to destroy any political ideas I have ever heard of. There are few ideologies more cruel and destructive than capitalism. It has murdered, starved, enslaved millions for some centuries now. So you think we should forbid it? I think the Baptist church should be forbidden. It has spread its shallow ideas all over the world, distracting people from dealing with the real problems that face them. I think that both Conservatism and Liberalism have been enormously damaging. (and I'd be prepared to defend that in a debate.
Limitations on free speech were very popular in nazi Germany. I'm not sure we should copy that.

Depends on what. Hateful ideas, directly hateful, are feuling conflict - they are validating ugly ideologies and spreading like cancer. They are not opening up respectful discussion and they are not intended to..

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Democratic in every way except the right to spread hate towards marginalized groups. That should be off the table. It's taking social progress backwards to allow it.

 

[Delightful Life]

Endless examples of what happens when speech is banned

France has some pretty broad hate speech laws.
"...prohibits by its penal code and by its press laws public and private communication which is defamatory or insulting, or which incites discrimination, hatred, or violence against a person or a group of persons on account of place of origin, ethnicity or lack thereof, nationality, race, specific religion, sex, sexual orientation, or handicap. The law prohibits declarations that justify or deny crimes against humanity, for example, the Holocaust (Gayssot Act)."
--from wikipedia
Sounds ok?
In 2015 France's highest court upheld criminal conviction of 12 individuals.
Their crime?
Wearing T-Shirts that said "Long Live Palestine, boycott Israel."
France Court Upholds 'BDS Is Discrimination' Ruling

 

[Luce NDs]

Depends who the "ordinary host" is.

Anyway...The Age of Trump is extraordinarily divisive.

Kind 've raptured ... passion is like that ... separating people from fear an anger? Thus no drive to think ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Is a 8-ful tee Chirt ... whetted ?

Nothing but booty and blunders ...

 

[Delightful Life]

Endless examples throughout history of what happens when the state controls our speech. Elites that think they know whatz best or just powerhungry peeps or just ordinary peeps who think they know whatz best for everyone.

And Kimmio, even tho you have been horrible here for around 2 weeks, "attacking" people, etc, I will never advocate making your speech illegal nor will I advocate anyone deleting your posts, even though you have expressed, in the past here on WC2, misogynist and racist views. You have the right to your speech not being made illegal by state laws here.

Its easy standing up for peoplez speech when you already agree with it. It is much more difficult in standing up 4 a perzons right to free speech when they are saying something abhorrent to you.

Looking at Germany, they also have very broad and strong hate speech codes. Esp around the Holocaust (one can get fined just for the wrong salute). And I see that anti semitism is on the rise. Seems like banning speech didnt work.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I have not expressed misogynist and racist views.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Endless examples of what happens when speech is banned

France has some pretty broad hate speech laws.
"...prohibits by its penal code and by its press laws public and private communication which is defamatory or insulting, or which incites discrimination, hatred, or violence against a person or a group of persons on account of place of origin, ethnicity or lack thereof, nationality, race, specific religion, sex, sexual orientation, or handicap. The law prohibits declarations that justify or deny crimes against humanity, for example, the Holocaust (Gayssot Act)."
--from wikipedia
Sounds ok?
In 2015 France's highest court upheld criminal conviction of 12 individuals.
Their crime?
Wearing T-Shirts that said "Long Live Palestine, boycott Israel."
France Court Upholds 'BDS Is Discrimination' Ruling

There should be a way to prohibit it without criminalizing it - depending on whether it is threatening or not, and non-trivial. Trivialities should be ignored. But trivialities on mass become non-trivial.
Otherwise, hate speech could be handled through human rights and civil courts/ lawsuits.

 

[Graeme Decarie]

It doesn't matter if you haven't spread racist views. You disagree with me, and I find that socially disruptive. I forbid you to speak to me any more.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It doesn't matter if you haven't spread racist views. You disagree with me, and I find that socially disruptive. I forbid you to speak to me any more.

if you actually seriously meant that, I would respect that and present my arguments without directing them at you.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Racism is on the rise post Obama. Birtherism opened up a big Pandora's box of hate groups feeling validated to spread their hate - endorsed by Trump himself. And Russia, to break up Europe, because ethnic tensions and nationalism are never far from the surface there.

There is no such thing as reverse racism/ sexism in North America. That is a misnomer for the reaction, by the historically dominant group, to the pursuit of equality by minorities.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Kimmio, calm down. No-one is trying to hurt your feelings. We're trying to, same way as 'we' would, for instance, do the same thing for unsafe, point out where you're off in left field and maybe need a bit of factual help.

Donald Trump is divisive exactly because he appeals to emotion, at a very visceral level. You appear to be particularly responsive to visceral emotion, and several people, who are, maybe, calmer by nature, have been trying to expose you to alternate viewpoints. You are apparently pretty upset by these efforts. Possibly a downside of being a Jungian F rather than T.

 

[crazyheart]

wow, did I start this post in 2015

Here is part of opening.

1. Trump believes in American exceptionalism.
2. Trump is tough, unafraid to flex America’s muscles, and has the backbone America needs to take on the evil growing around the world.
3. Trump is an experienced and tough dealmaker.
4. Trump is not politically correct; he’s not afraid to say what he believes and has ignited an honest debate.
5. Trump demands high performance and will fire anyone that doesn’t meet his high standards.
6. Trump is committed to education.
7. Trump “built that business” and many more and will run America like a business.
8. Trump will not balance his job as President with golf and other social events.
9. Trump’s loyalty will be only to America and Americans—not any political party, special interest group or foreign entity.
10. Trump will support American laws, the Constitution, and the nation’s borders.

Well, well,well. Interesting.......makes me sick that some people still believe he is God.

 

[Jaebius]

Kimmio, calm down. No-one is trying to hurt your feelings. We're trying to, same way as 'we' would, for instance, do the same thing for unsafe, point out where you're off in left field and maybe need a bit of factual help.

Donald Trump is divisive exactly because he appeals to emotion, at a very visceral level. You appear to be particularly responsive to visceral emotion, and several people, who are, maybe, calmer by nature, have been trying to expose you to alternate viewpoints. You are apparently pretty upset by these efforts. Possibly a downside of being a Jungian F rather than T.

That sounds to me more like a bad stereotype of F's Bette. The major difference between T's and F's as I understand it is that you prefer making decisions based on objective logic, whereas we prefer doing so based on our subjective personal values. Think Iron Man vs. Captain America.

 

[Delightful Life]

@crazyheart
You like a good mother let your child go
And she's thriving
There are good and decent and g_d loving people etc who voted for Trump. I have given some of their voices here. There are some good abd decent and g_d loving etc people who didnt vote for Trump. I have given some of their voices here. And otherwise.
This thread has been a microcosm of the macrocosm
Of how we human beings function and malfunction
Of how persuasion could work
Of how manipulation works
On the insanity of the crowd
On the wisdom of crowds
Of how we can orgsnize ourselves around Tribes
And how that actually affects how we see reality, what is real and what isnt and what is icky and what is sacred...
And so forth
Good going, Mother of Threads!

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Kimmio, calm down. No-one is trying to hurt your feelings. We're trying to, same way as 'we' would, for instance, do the same thing for unsafe, point out where you're off in left field and maybe need a bit of factual help.

Donald Trump is divisive exactly because he appeals to emotion, at a very visceral level. You appear to be particularly responsive to visceral emotion, and several people, who are, maybe, calmer by nature, have been trying to expose you to alternate viewpoints. You are apparently pretty upset by these efforts. Possibly a downside of being a Jungian F rather than T.

I'm actually calm. I'm taking a different approach to the comments to me that I feel are bullying - reporting from now on instead of arguing or dishing back - and it appears that has launched some others into a hissy fit. I am more of a calm person than I am given credit for.

And Graeme I do not want to alienate you. I am sorry if it was taken that way. I am saying if you genuinely asked me to leave you alone and not reply to me in a personal manner, I'd respect that.

 

[Jaebius]

@crazyheart
You like a good mother let your child go
And she's thriving
There are good and decent and g_d loving people etc who voted for Trump. I have given some of their voices here. There are some good abd decent and g_d loving etc people who didnt vote for Trump. I have given some of their voices here. And otherwise.
This thread has been a microcosm of the macrocosm
Of how we human beings function and malfunction
Of how persuasion could work
Of how manipulation works
On the insanity of the crowd
On the wisdom of crowds
Of how we can orgsnize ourselves around Tribes
And how that actually affects how we see reality, what is real and what isnt and what is icky and what is sacred...
And so forth
Good going, Mother of Threads!

You've made a yuge contribution to this thread Inanna. Yuge. Beautiful. The very best.