Sin and Grace

[PilgrimsProgress]

Everyone is free to disagree with Paul Tillich. (or me for that matter!)

As a Pilgrim I was excited by his novel approach - one that resonated with me.
As for pastors, I don't look for a talking head - I look for a person who is most like Jesus, i.e. one who simply believes in exemplifying the two commandments -to love God and love our neighbour.

Too much pontificating, not enough agape. Too much ego, not enough Spirit.

(Alas, now I'm experiencing negative connection, which is the most feeble (and rather sad) way to connect. )

.

 

[Luce NDs]

professors were asking about what doctrinal stress most distinguishes Christianity from world religions. Lewis quickly responded: That's easy--the grace of God!" The others agreed.

This would be a peaceful break in the norm of war and conflict for ordinary people that are taught that they shouldn't know any ... bet'a than that as war supports the elite? You can bet'on its a quantum state open to pure chance ... a dark area that few know fore shore ... that dark loaming shadow for the wanderer archetype .. a condition in mind ... and thus mystical as no one has seen one ... that sol thingy! I have feelings for IDe ... sometimes in Nordic tradition they find it ICH-E to getting out of reality ... a blowing thing like sects and Tzar-sis ... following wealth across the LAN scape ... as it weaves between the hypothetical lesser parts ... partisans? Why some keep their head down ... they don't wish to observe ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Everyone is free to disagree with Paul Tillich. (or me for that matter!)

As a Pilgrim I was excited by his novel approach - one that resonated with me.
As for pastors, I don't look for a talking head - I look for a person who is most like Jesus, i.e. one who simply believes in exemplifying the two commandments -to love God and love our neighbour.

Too much pontificating, not enough agape. Too much ego, not enough Spirit.

(Alas, now I'm experiencing negative connection, which is the most feeble (and rather sad) way to connect. )

.

In Christian conflict ... neighbours are to be put down before they teach you something you didn't know afore ... thus in deja vue ... a feeling of metaphor ... and thus the ST. umpage left after the tree of knowledge headed south ... with the carpenters of myth ... as it now lies on the page buoyed ... intent's thought? Sometimes known as ye Oman ... or Aamon in some traditions as scattered abstract ... a thing of mental type?

It is said to put down small thoughts early before they erupt ... Zeus ... we couldn't have that as thye could divine out as Caduceus ... divine faced form ... facetiae? ... Aryan geist ... or northland jest?

Lord blesses the winds ... and thye go round ...

 

[Seeler]

Over the years as a lay worship leader I have picked up hints in conversation with various ministers. One of the first that really struck me was a minister who said something to the effect of 'I was called to a congregaation that hadd a reputation for being very demanding and difficult - critical of any minister who answered their call. They chewed up clergy and spit them out. On my first Sunday with them I asked them "What do you need from me?" Evereyone was silent, then an elderly woman stood up and said simply "I need to be told that God love me. I need to be told every week."' The minister went on 'I took that to heart. I preached the love of God, God's grace. I stayed for six years. I never had trouble with that congregation.' I too took this advice to heart. Any time I am planning a worship seervice I make sure to include this in my message. God knows you and loves you, unconditionally.

Another piece of aadvice, another minister. "I find that if you want to introduce something new to a congregation or make a change, you have to do it slowly. Don't hit them over the head. Don't tell them they've been doing it wrong. Don't force it on them. Introduce it slowly, maybe just a sentence or two in a sermon, maybe the next week aa hymn that reflects the same theology, maybe a reference to a book or within a small grooup study. Six months or a year later you hopefully will find most of the congregation accepts it (gender neutral terms, for example; lay leadership in reading scripture; a change in the order of service; a contemporary service once a month)." So I am careful not to 'upset the applecart' while still remaining honest in my understanding of where the Spirit is leading, realizing that in my one (or two or three) Sundays in this church I am not going to change everything, but I may plant a seed.

 

[Luce NDs]

Stunning Seeler ...

Imagine having to be told the eternal loves a mortal ... when, if the eternal is that vast ... could a mortal escape that condition?

Then if the eternal is confined in a script, book, box or bag and transposed out of existence ... wouldn't that be clearly transcended beyond as a dark fringe ... if you can't see it .. is that abstract or a see through void ... tunnel of passion all hoe dupe ... in cultivation? Thus plough shares ... and shared san witches ... bread with meat?

A boner or just bonnie satire ... Jacobean humour about the Tudors ... as touted ... then there's Sachmo on the horn blown sol ... if no sol ... no Muse IQ!

 

[revjohn]

To the two revs - methinks you understand separation more than perhaps you know - have you noticed that many of your posts seem aimed at finding fault with a post?

Classic. Quote a dead theologian uncritically and when two live theologians offer thoughts dismiss them as fault finding.

And what does that achieve? It separates me from you.

No real fault finding in the post as such. A critique of the theologian appealed to certainly. No fault found or assigned to you personally.

Yikes, you couple of sinners, now I feel like a sinner.

If only sin was a matter of feeling. Then denial would be an adequate solution.

And, one would not have to read to much of me to know that while I do not throw the term sinner around often it is one that I do not deny can be adequately applied to me. And to be candid, if sinning is missing the mark then by describing all of humanity as sinful I am in bull's eye territory. I didn't invent the phrase, "all have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God" I find it a rather difficult concept to disprove. Anybody here willing to put their perfection to a test?

Sin does separate. Sin is much more than simple separation. Such a concept reduces the enormity of the problem to something that can be resolved by "thinking" or "feeling" differently. It is the theological equivalent of telling somebody with clinical depression to lighten up.

I suspect that there are many who are drawn to the unconditional love of God. As Jean Vanier observed, the number one question (even if it is not expressed) of we humans is "Do you love me?"

I wouldn't doubt that at all. Love is a very powerful force within Creation. Grace is not the whole of unconditional love. That represents a category error. Similar to all Aussie women are Sheilas but not every Sheila is an Aussie woman.

What best attributes do lay people look for in a minister or priest?

If I had the answer to that nailed down I wouldn't wonder about the interview on Tuesday.

I suspect that the answer is nuanced and varies from person to person.

Are they wedded to their own version of theology or do they seem to be a loving person?

Are the two ideas mutually exclusive? I suppose if we reduce everyone to a stereotype then we can make such exclusions. Resisting that impulse it looks like we have to accept that everybody is nuanced and that within individuals we find positions that are not entirely consistent.

Around here I am the resident Calvinist. Elsewhere I am an incredibly competent grandfather. In a few hours I take a beloved and ancient friend who has been seizing constantly since I left for an interview. She has rebounded since my return but in the 48 hours I was gone she had 9 grand mal seizures and innumerable petit mal seizures. With no veterinarian in St. Anthony I have to make a 5.5 hour one way trip to have her humanely euthanized. That will be followed by a 5.5 hour incredibly lonely drive home. I could just write her off as broken creation and drown her in a pond as would have been her fate 15 years ago had we not taken her runty, little self in.

I've managed to remain happily married for 26 years now, despite being a Calvinist through all of that.

Not once, have I had to sacrifice theological understanding to accomplish any of that. In fact, I suspect all of that has been flavoured by the theological heritage and foundation that I was given and have built on ever since.

Grace is, my favourite, element of theology. It is a work of beautiful majesty that should never attempt to be simplified. I know that my every attempt to paint it in all of its glory falls short of the blessed reality. And I don't pretend that I haven't failed to match it. Which is why I am not particularly jazzed by attempts to render it small and simple or even comprehensible.

I have been blessed by the grace of God.

I have no idea why God would decide to give it to me. I only know that I will never be worthy of earning such a gift and I will always be grateful that God is so generous.

 

[Luce NDs]

Tis awesome when you attempt to look everything over ... one Dai at a time as humans are a bit slow at absorbing and consuming painful knowledge ... self induced? --- Pogo ?

 

[unsafe]

PilgrimsProgress -----your quote -----These two words that pertain to religion I feel need an updated way of understanding them.

unsafe says
Do you believe True Christ--ianity is really a religion -----Religions of the world are all man made ---Religion is man reaching up to God -----True Christ--ianity is about God reaching down to man ---True Christ--ianity is a relationship with God ----Religion is about what man has to do to be right with God ---True Christ--ianity is what God has already done to provide us the opportunity to be right with Him again --- Religion says we have to earn salvation by good deeds keeping God's laws etc -----True Christ--ianity say we have to believe by Faith that Jesus by and through His death and shed blood paid the price for our sins and iniquity to give us eternal life and free us from sin and death ---

Sin and Grace have to do with God --not Religion ------

To Sin is a personal choice for us as unbelievers and believers -----no one forces anyone to fall into sin ------For the unbeliever sin is appealing --it creates excitement in our day and life -----Sin brings shame ---it is because of the shame that we feel we are unworthy of God ----so anyone who feels they can sin and feel the Love of God in their personal life are only fooling themselves ----God does love us even as we sin and do foolish things ---it is not God who abandons us ---It is our own selves who because of the shame sin brings feel we are not loved by God -----

unsafe posted definition of shame

Shame [N]-----read all at link below
Shame Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

Shame is a consequence of sin. Feelings of guilt and shame are subjective acknowledgments of an objective spiritual reality. Guilt is judicial in character; shame is relational. Though related to guilt, shame emphasizes sin's effect on self-identity. Sinful human beings are traumatized before a holy God, exposed for failure to live up to God's glorious moral purpose. The first response of Adam and Eve to their sinful condition was to hide from God, and consequently from one another ( Gen 3:7-8 ; 2:25 ). Christ's unhindered openness to the Father was both a model for life and the means of removing humanity's shame. Christian self-identity is transformed "in him."

unsafe says and posted scripture

The only way to rid ourselves from shame is to receive Jesus as our Lord and Saviour -----

Grace is so wide --so deep ---and so powerful ---that one could preach on this subject for a year and still not Cover how powerful and great Grace is

Grace is not a thing ---Grace is a person -----who is that person Jesus Christ ---Grace is not just Pardon ---Grace is an enabling Power ----

Paul says it best here ---in verse 10
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - Easy-to-Read Version
1 Corinthians 15 (ERV)
The Good News About Jesus Christ

9 All the other apostles are greater than I am. I say this because I persecuted the church of God. That is why I am not even good enough to be called an apostle. 10 But, because of God’s grace, that is what I am. And his grace that he gave me was not wasted. I worked harder than all the other apostles. (But I was not really the one working. It was God’s grace that was with me.) 11 So then it is not important if I told you God’s message or if it was the other apostles who told you—we all tell people the same message, and this is what you believed.

Most Ministers do not understand the gravity of Grace to preach it rightly ----I have attended many churches and Grace is rarely even brought up in Sermons ----many still are trying to get there church to reach God by doing ---serving ---etc ----this is what most Ministers and people say about Grace when asked ----What is the grace of God? -----Common Christian teaching is that grace is unmerited mercy (favor) that God gave to humanity by sending his Son, Jesus Christ, to die on a cross, thus securing man's eternal salvation from sin.

Grace is so much more -----Grace makes available all that Jesus accomplished on the Cross ----our Faith takes what Grace has already made available ----- Grace provides all the Blessing that God put in place in the Old Testament ----we no longer have the Curse for disobedience of not keeping the Law ----our job now is to believe and receive what is in place for us ----

Grace is free to us but it is not cheap ----God's Grace cost Jesus His life ----Jesus paid a high price to bring God's Free Grace to us -----No greater Love can be shown than this ----

 

[unsafe]

PilgrimsProgress ----your quote ---- I look for a person who is most like Jesus, i.e. one who simply believes in exemplifying the two commandments -to love God and love our neighbour.

unsafe says
Have you really found one that does just that -----most like Jesus---to love God and love our neighbour.----

I personally think this is one scripture that needs to be upgraded ----We throw this command around like it is so simple ----many on this sight use this command like a whim -----I personally think that most have no idea what this really means -----in our life time we will most likely never Love God and our neighbour as directed by the true meaning in this scripture ----

This scripture has nothing to do with how we humans show Love ------we fail miserably at even remotely showing what True Agape entails ----

unsafe posted this below from an article see link below ----read all here

The Challenge of "Agape" Love

It is the kind of love that we must have for all men — even our enemies (Matthew 5:44). The Christian must always act out of love, i.e., in the best interest of his fellow human beings.

1 Corinthians 13 — The “Love” Chapter
Unquestionably, the most exhaustive treatment of what this kind of love involves is found in 1 Corinthians 13. Within this context, the inspired apostle gives more than a dozen descriptives which regulate the operation of agape love.

The Character of Love
Long-suffering
Kind
Not Envious
Not Arrogant
Not Rude
Not Egocentric
Not Quickly Provoked
Not a “Record-Keeper” of Mistakes
Supportive
Trusts
Endures
Never Ends

Conclusion

The divine dictionary of love will be a lifetime challenge, but the demonstration of this virtue will evince that we are truly the Lord’s disciples (John 13:35).

unsafe says ---
All that is listed is us displaying these Traits consistently all the time no matter what comes to us -----no wavering

So if anyone of us think that any Minister ---or ourselves display Agape as it truly is we are fooling ourselves -----we right here on this Thread have shown that we are no where near ---Loving God and our neighbour as we should ----that is with Agape ----offence and snide remarks are present in posts ---- so we need to not use this command so loosely and throw it around like it is so easy ---- It is not that easy to master God's true Agape ----and no one can even think of displaying Agape without the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit ----as it is a fruit of the Spirit ---

Only through the Holy Spirit directing us and with much practice and calling on God's Grace to help us stay the course will we ever be able to being to master true Agape in my opinion ----


If we Truly Love God with Agape then this means we truly love and believe His word and follow it as it is written ----we Trust in His word and what it says ---We follow His Will for us -----We can't say we love God but we don't believe much of what He says in His word ----We can't say we Love God and not obey His directions that He has laid out for us in His word ----

Agape --means Love that Trusts and Obeys ---it is always Faithful and never Disappoints ---- it never Abandons ----It never Fails -----Agape comes when God lives in us and we live in Him and trust and follow His word ----

unsafe posted scripture

 

[Luce NDs]

If god is eternally love and no room for though, intellect or wisdom .. is this essence stunned or stumped in the garden ...? Good, bad, or ugly ...

 

[Waterfall]

Over the years as a lay worship leader I have picked up hints in conversation with various ministers. One of the first that really struck me was a minister who said something to the effect of 'I was called to a congregaation that hadd a reputation for being very demanding and difficult - critical of any minister who answered their call. They chewed up clergy and spit them out. On my first Sunday with them I asked them "What do you need from me?" Evereyone was silent, then an elderly woman stood up and said simply "I need to be told that God love me. I need to be told every week."' The minister went on 'I took that to heart. I preached the love of God, God's grace. I stayed for six years. I never had trouble with that congregation.' I too took this advice to heart. Any time I am planning a worship seervice I make sure to include this in my message. God knows you and loves you, unconditionally.

Another piece of aadvice, another minister. "I find that if you want to introduce something new to a congregation or make a change, you have to do it slowly. Don't hit them over the head. Don't tell them they've been doing it wrong. Don't force it on them. Introduce it slowly, maybe just a sentence or two in a sermon, maybe the next week aa hymn that reflects the same theology, maybe a reference to a book or within a small grooup study. Six months or a year later you hopefully will find most of the congregation accepts it (gender neutral terms, for example; lay leadership in reading scripture; a change in the order of service; a contemporary service once a month)." So I am careful not to 'upset the applecart' while still remaining honest in my understanding of where the Spirit is leading, realizing that in my one (or two or three) Sundays in this church I am not going to change everything, but I may plant a seed.

I like this, but isn't it sort of sad that congregations have to be treated like children?

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

I like this, but isn't it sort of sad that congregations have to be treated like children?

Jesus often asked what did folks want him to do - I thought that as disciples, ministers today would do much the same thing. But, then again, the church has had many fire and brimstone preachers who see their role as telling folks what to do, rather than demonstrating God's love. Is it little wonder that many folks tire of being lectured to, and show their response by leaving the church?

 

[Seeler]

I like this, but isn't it sort of sad that congregations have to be treated like children?

I don't see it as treating them like children. I see it as working with them to meet them where they are and to guide and encourage them, perhaps learning something from them as you walk the journey.
And even children can get their backs up and become difficult when they feel that something is being forced upon them.

 

[Jaebius]

Jesus often asked what did folks want him to do - I thought that as disciples, ministers today would do much the same thing. But, then again, the church has had many fire and brimstone preachers who see their role as telling folks what to do, rather than demonstrating God's love. Is it little wonder that many folks tire of being lectured to, and show their response by leaving the church?

I feel there is room for the preacher to both guide people in how to live out their lives in Christ and to share with them words of God's love. I don't feel that those things need be at odds at all.

"de, alētheuō en agapē, auxanō pas eis autos ho hos eimi ho kephalē, Christos" - Ephesians 4:15.

 

[Waterfall]

Jesus often asked what did folks want him to do - I thought that as disciples, ministers today would do much the same thing. But, then again, the church has had many fire and brimstone preachers who see their role as telling folks what to do, rather than demonstrating God's love. Is it little wonder that many folks tire of being lectured to, and show their response by leaving the church?

Does it sound more like a lecture if one doesn't agree? .......but does that make it necessarily the truth? I always had the impression that to follow Jesus isn't a cakewalk, my guess is He peeved off many people.

 

[Luce NDs]

I don't see it as treating them like children. I see it as working with them to meet them where they are and to guide and encourage them, perhaps learning something from them as you walk the journey.
And even children can get their backs up and become difficult when they feel that something is being forced upon them.

Accrued sense of networking?

When the light takes off ... does it cast a Shadow as the people rest in an imaginary state of not knowing ... when deep down they do ...

Nonetheless it is still shadowy ... agnostic state ... while some are in celestial ecstasy ... deposed by rite of elimination ... and so IDe goes ... the primal power of Oz summed up Semites ... stacked oddities?

 

[unsafe]

In my view
it is important for the Church to have the gift of discernment or at least be very knowledgeable of scripture so they know when a preacher is not directing them in the right direction to live out their lives in Christ ----

As far as preachers doing a Sermon on fire and brimstone -----these words are definitely in scripture and should be preached as directed by and through the Holy Spirit not by our own means ----Preachers are not to sugar coat God's message ---if they do they are hurting their Church ---They are to preach the Gospel as it is -----

unsafe posted scripture
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8, KJV).

unsafe says
There is a problem with watering down scripture or only preaching on the good and leaving out the bad -----to appease people ---Jesus preached on both the good and bad in scripture some listened --some left ----If people are fearful when the bad is preached their fear comes from Satan not God ----we can't blame the preacher for scaring us ---Satan wants us scared and frightened to keep us from hearing the message ---Satan loves it when we stay away from church because we don't like what is preached --he doesn't want us with God he wants us with him ----


unsafe posted ---This is from Got Questions ---Read all at link provided ---

What is hellfire preaching? Is hellfire preaching biblical?

Is there a place for hellfire preaching today?----- Not only is there a place for teaching about the fires of hell and the only way to escape them,
but true preaching of the gospel of Christ is not complete without it.

If today’s pastors and preachers are to be consistent with the Scriptures, preaching and warning their flocks about the fires of hell must be part of their message.

Too often, people are invited to come to Christ so He can ‘fix up’ their lives,------But this is not the message of the Bible. ----

We come to Christ for forgiveness of sin, the very presence of which in all our hearts is a sure one-way ticket to hell.

A balanced, biblical message consists of the reality of hell, a warning to escape it, and the only way to do so—through the shed blood of Christ on the cross for our sins.

unsafe says
Preachers need to start preaching the real Truth by and through the Holy Spirit not themselves -----in my opinion there are to many scared preachers that just preach what their church wants to hear not what God wants them to hear ---

 

[chansen]

We come to Christ for forgiveness of sin, the very presence of which in all our hearts is a sure one-way ticket to hell.

Great, but that's insane. Completely, certifiably insane.

If your God exists and has actually created a place of torture, without anything approaching independent evidence outside of those scriptural references, then this God rewards gullibility and punishes honest inquiry. This is the exact opposite of how we could expect any benevolent supreme being to operate, unless that supreme being is a sadistic jerk.

You presuppose a complete jackass of a God, and you do so without anything believable to back it up. The good thing here is, fictional sadistic gods are the best kind of sadistic gods.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

Great, but that's insane. Completely, certifiably insane.

If your God exists and has actually created a place of torture, without anything approaching independent evidence outside of those scriptural references, then this God rewards gullibility and punishes honest inquiry. This is the exact opposite of how we could expect any benevolent supreme being to operate, unless that supreme being is a sadistic jerk.
.

An "honest inquiry" is what I, and many pilgrims, are endeavouring to do on our faith journey.

Trouble is, we are often challenged by those who got off the train at a station called Certainty.

As the scenery rolls by, I look out the window and see sin. If Jesus said that there are two commandments -to love God and love our neighbour - then failure to do one or both are what I would term "sin". I recognize that "sin" in myself by feeling disconnected from God and my fellow humans. There is no need of punishment from "a sadistic jerk" -as the feeling of separation is punishment enough.

That said, the faith journey continues, and the scenery may well change (as it has in the past) before journey's end.

 

[Luce NDs]

Great, but that's insane. Completely, certifiably insane.

If your God exists and has actually created a place of torture, without anything approaching independent evidence outside of those scriptural references, then this God rewards gullibility and punishes honest inquiry. This is the exact opposite of how we could expect any benevolent supreme being to operate, unless that supreme being is a sadistic jerk.

You presuppose a complete jackass of a God, and you do so without anything believable to back it up. The good thing here is, fictional sadistic gods are the best kind of sadistic gods.

If God has a place in mind ... and the mind is non-existent (or so I've been told it is imaginary) then is thought abstract as defined in some a'de Lexus? That 'd be a dictionary taking the place of dictation ist ... dictator? Depend on the tense you experience ... thus primal tent maqon ... and shades under the fabrication ...