Sin and Grace

[PilgrimsProgress]

These two words that pertain to religion I feel need an updated way of understanding them. (Let's face it, the two don't come up in general conversation these days!)

A friend sent my some writing of Paul Tillich - where he tackles this very problem, and I thought it would lead to some reflection.

To Tillich, "sin" is just another word for separation. It isn't so much what we do - but the experience of being separated from God, ourselves and each other.
We know that feeling - and it doesn't feel good!

Sin and grace are bound together - and grace is the return to connection. Connection to God, ourselves and each other.

Simplified perhaps, but I know in my own life I feel either connected or separated. They are the two essential states of being, are they not?

 

[Luce NDs]

In the science of religion ... could we get together to see how this fixation went wrong in the line of elimination and denial of pi stis Sophia? Wisdom ... a rye thing (diphthong) when stripped down ... to the KISS line ... and it went ... as blind passions was more adhered to ...

Real people are peculiarities in worlds of virtue ... that aren't here yet ... the option is temporal ...

 

[Jaebius]

Yes, our sin separates us from God, however by God's grace we may be reconnected to him. That's why Jesus came on a rescue mission from Heaven - so that we might enjoy fellowship again with God.

 

[Luce NDs]

Yes, our sin separates us from God, however by God's grace we may be reconnected to him. That's why Jesus came on a rescue mission from Heaven - so that we might enjoy fellowship again with God.

Accrued science ... agnosticism? Happens when all things are questioned ... and some fundamentals can't be questioned for fear they are found wrong ... fat chance?

I've always been told I'm not right ... thus there has to be something left ... fallacy or fallout? Slam dunk ...

 

[Seeler]

We ignore the spiritual side of our being, rather than recognize, nuture and develop it.
We turn away from others, perhaps because of a quarrel or perhaps because we don't have the energy to maintain bounds.
We neglect or deny our connection with the earth our home - getting our food from supermarkets, going from one airconditioned place to another, exploiting our resources.
And we feel disconnected, alone in a universe we didn't make and that we don't recognize as our home. We have no connections. We don't belong.
I think this might be what being in a state of sin might feel like.

But no matter how hard we try to deny it, God's grace is with us. God is ready to gather us under her wings until we feel safe, and then lift us up until we soar above. God's grace sustains us and encourages us. God's grace unables us to reach out to others and as God has forgiven us, so does God enable us to forgive others, or receive their forgiveness, and build bridges again. And God breaths life into us in a breath of air, until we see the beauty and bountifulness of the world our home.

Sin separates; grace restores.

 

[Luce NDs]

Still hard cases try to depose such anon sense ... thus dispositioning of points ...

What is the proper understanding of anon ... something yet to come ?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

We ignore the spiritual side of our being, rather than recognize, nuture and develop it.
We turn away from others, perhaps because of a quarrel or perhaps because we don't have the energy to maintain bounds.
We neglect or deny our connection with the earth our home - getting our food from supermarkets, going from one airconditioned place to another, exploiting our resources.
And we feel disconnected, alone in a universe we didn't make and that we don't recognize as our home. We have no connections. We don't belong.
I think this might be what being in a state of sin might feel like.

But no matter how hard we try to deny it, God's grace is with us. God is ready to gather us under her wings until we feel safe, and then lift us up until we soar above. God's grace sustains us and encourages us. God's grace unables us to reach out to others and as God has forgiven us, so does God enable us to forgive others, or receive their forgiveness, and build bridges again. And God breaths life into us in a breath of air, until we see the beauty and bountifulness of the world our home.

Sin separates; grace restores.

It sounds a lot like depression, which I wouldn't necessarily characterize as a state of sin. Sometimes we make mistakes that seperate us from others, sometimes it's of no fault of our own, and sometimes we realize that there are good reasons to separate.

I think it's the job of Christians to connect to those who might be feeling that way - but not to judge them as being in a state of "sin" - just having a rough time in their circumstances. We've all been there in one way or another and we may again so I don't feel right about calling that a state of sin.

A mafioso living of the proceeds of terrible crime and making that a lifestyle that is "normal" for them, without conscience - I might call that a "state of sin"


I don't think a state of Grace automatically = feeling good about everything and everyone, but just a sense that it will be okay, we are loved and not alone. Appreciating the small blessings - sometimes they feel huge - and paying them forward.

A state of sin would be, imo, someone who lives in such a way where they don't realize or care that they are doing harm - never examine their own hearts and minds - have no conscience about it, and generally don't believe in sin or Grace - for themselves or others.

When I see people like this man, to me they have and exude Grace...

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

It sounds a lot like depression, which I wouldn't necessarily characterize as a state of sin. Sometimes we make mistakes that seperate us from others, sometimes it's of no fault of our own, and sometimes we realize that there are good reasons to separate.

I think it's the job of Christians to connect to those who might be feeling that way - but not to judge them as being in a state of "sin" - just having a rough time in their circumstances. We've all been there in one way or another and we may again so I don't feel right about calling that a state of sin.

A mafioso living of the proceeds of terrible crime and making that a lifestyle that is "normal" for them, without conscience - I might call that a "state of sin"


I don't think a state of Grace automatically = feeling good about everything and everyone, but just a sense that it will be okay, we are loved and not alone. Appreciating the small blessings - sometimes they feel huge - and paying them forward.

A state of sin would be, imo, someone who lives in such a way where they don't realize or care that they are doing harm - never examine their own hearts and minds - have no conscience about it, and generally don't believe in sin or Grace - for themselves or others.

When I see people like this man, to me they have and exude Grace...

Yes, those of us who have the misfortune to have a depressive illness understood the separated/connected experience -perhaps more fully than most.......

Yet, I still think that it's an experience common to all.......

Loved the video, notice how the man was so connected to his music, that he seemed oblivious to the traffic noise? His music is a form of grace.

 

[crazyheart]

I just kept watching one video after another. Grace, for sure.

 

[Luce NDs]

Tis a given ... Grace that is ... even if some mist it in a fog of emotion ... de Light is still there, still smoking along, in de swirl of Misty ... like a' donat in the mug ... as dippy as any warm bath ... not kohl if the shadow has teeth ... then you know you've been bit by the bug ... too haute?

Goes round like debelle ... causing isolated type ... that dizzy sense ... some never get over it ... thus attached booty that's smooth ... without corners? No blundering allowed ... be gentile ... tell a story where the truth is hidden as the truth hurts those that can't even see it hidden there ... blind fates ... that's their portion ... off in the distance ... MU Sis ... part of the Mi Nu Es myth ... to avoid truth and lies ... and thus other means ... and all this contained in a box of 6 lines ... 8 connecting points to confine what's in there ... Schrodinger's mystery ... we don't know yet until gone on that pilgrimage ... an inside theory ... that may lead to what's out and about ... gong show? After that recession ... for what goes up in vanity must recede ... tis stuff of aspiration, perspiration, and respiration .. now again: breathe in ... breathe out ... give Eire to them out there ... old Celtic Matrix ... given by mighty chon'd real material ... perhaps what you believed insubstantial point ... after that composition ... de Pixel NG? That's when one collects de points laid out in space ... de Light goes on ... even if you see IDe not ... thus it is dark and occult out there ... mysterious? You didn't wish to go that far did yah ... some actions can take you sense away ... thus the protesting work habits ... to avoid the schism ... alien void? Like a flaw in the brae in ... parietal lobotomy? Mean cut ... after the right ... a left side ... to observe the right and the right hates science ... thus blind fates ... they spin, weave and cut away ...

One must know the Ayres of fates ... leads to wobble ... ask any lady with bobbles ... the wavy mare ... curried Hoes ... things without de R's ... if faced with respect instead of fear ... the way it is with isolation and intimacy ... some sharing expected ... but powers and principalities will build Wahls about that ... fear is the tool ... but terminates with anger management items ...

Thus chi blows periodically ... due to imbalance with the environment ... a list unseen by those inexperienced in wisdom ... extracted from afar thoughts ... some do not have a system that believes in thought just dynamics ... as emotes accumulate ... tis accrued escape ... bede ath 've me ... God's bede ... inclusive of deli Sp.

Later, a step along the way ... we stop with cognizance ... with many questions ... they never NDe ... and some may never know ... What? Don't ask me ... I was told questions were improper ... they remind people of ... I forget ... forgot and begotten once you grasped imp as Sionate things ... literacy in chaos! Profound poetics to present people with what they wanted ... not to know ... the card in the 'ole? Surrounded by know nothing ... no Ayres ... the yes men fall away ...

 

[Seeler]

oh dear - oh dear - how can I explain.
I don't think of sin as being something to blame or shame - for the most part I don't think of sin as being anybody's 'fault'. I rather think of it as being alone in a crowd, disconnected, estranged, - yes, perhaps depressed is one way of describing it although many people who feel disconnected do not look or act depressed. Rather they may seem to be 'the lifee of the party' surroounded by friends and good times. But when the party is over ...
This is when we need grace. The grace of God reaching out to us, surrounding us, loving us even when we can't love ourselves. This is where we need friends and family to 'be there' for us and perhaps protecting us and others from the harm we might do. This is where we need comfort and security and connection with the earth our home.
Love God, love others as we love ourselves.
Perhaps this is where we sometimes fail - when we fail to love ourselves. (I think of Trump and his constant need for adoration and attention.)

 

[revjohn]

These two words that pertain to religion I feel need an updated way of understanding them. (Let's face it, the two don't come up in general conversation these days!)

Probably depends upon who you "generally" talk to and the subject matter you "generally" talk about. I find the terms pretty current and inclusive of understandings that most people can grasp easily enough.

True, like any definition, folk can settle on the routine so much that it becomes distorted. That said, I don't think the definitions of the words are as problematic as what it is that each says about us. Both, in their way, are very offensive to any who think themselves strong and independant or enlightened.

To Tillich, "sin" is just another word for separation. It isn't so much what we do - but the experience of being separated from God, ourselves and each other.

Yeah. Beg to differ.

It isn't that it isn't so much what we do it is everything that we do and quite a bit of what we don't do. It does separate, the holy and the pure from that which is impure.

And that is the offence. We have all sinned and we have all fallen short. So, it is precisely what we do, or don't do, that drives the wedge between ourselves and God. Sin is us missing the mark and we miss it with stunning proficiency even when we aren't trying to.

Sin and grace are bound together - and grace is the return to connection. Connection to God, ourselves and each other.

Well. Conceptually yes, they are bound, grace is to sin as penicillin is to bacterial infection. One can experience one without knowing the other.

And the connection is not something we have any control over. If we do it ceases to be grace and becomes merit. Grace is the action that God takes, to remedy the sin action (or inaction as the case may be). Grace defeats the action that leads to separation, while restoring communion.

Even on a purely human, horizontal plane grace must be freely given or it is an obligation and everyone actually does deserve it.

Simplified perhaps, but I know in my own life I feel either connected or separated. They are the two essential states of being, are they not?

No. They are not.

I imagine great masses of people exist without seriously considering how they are connected or separated from any other thing.

 

[Luce NDs]

Probably depends upon who you "generally" talk to and the subject matter you "generally" talk about. I find the terms pretty current and inclusive of understandings that most people can grasp easily enough.

True, like any definition, folk can settle on the routine so much that it becomes distorted. That said, I don't think the definitions of the words are as problematic as what it is that each says about us. Both, in their way, are very offensive to any who think themselves strong and independant or enlightened.



Yeah. Beg to differ.

It isn't that it isn't so much what we do it is everything that we do and quite a bit of what we don't do. It does separate, the holy and the pure from that which is impure.

And that is the offence. We have all sinned and we have all fallen short. So, it is precisely what we do, or don't do, that drives the wedge between ourselves and God. Sin is us missing the mark and we miss it with stunning proficiency even when we aren't trying to.



Well. Conceptually yes, they are bound, grace is to sin as penicillin is to bacterial infection. One can experience one without knowing the other.

And the connection is not something we have any control over. If we do it ceases to be grace and becomes merit. Grace is the action that God takes, to remedy the sin action (or inaction as the case may be). Grace defeats the action that leads to separation, while restoring communion.

Even on a purely human, horizontal plane grace must be freely given or it is an obligation and everyone actually does deserve it.



No. They are not.

I imagine great masses of people exist without seriously considering how they are connected or separated from any other thing.

Kind of fits with the Hebrew word "mahaineim" as transferred into other linguistic as an isolated bean ... that's be Jack ... stalking about hypothetically ... or as antithesis? In Greek this is UV and a dark light in English ... a filmy expression ... for a po' fellow burned from constant put downs ... made heroic by Dante ... and often coming around to haunt ...

Thus the god's people that are allowed dropping from real consideration? Fits in with Mythos, Mithras, and other creature out of the work pits in Crete that is a root word for Cretan ... sometime an alternative to a mistruth applied to avoid the pain of truth!

So much buried in that heresy that goes against authoritarian roué ... could be a rub or other unguent ... expensive stuff that could cause a John his head ... these topple with vast RIFTs, giggles and dimples in deep space if leered into from beyond ...

 

[Mystic]

Seeler: "I don't think of sin as being something to blame or shame - for the most part I don't think of sin as being anybody's 'fault'. I rather think of it as being alone in a crowd, disconnected, estranged..."
From a biblical perspective, you are confusing "sin" with the maturation process of overcoming limitations by learning through trial and error.
For example, the NT teaches that Jesus 'grew in favor with God" and had to "learn obedience from what He suffered," and yet, was "without sin."
Yes, "sin" means "to miss the mark" and the resulting separation from God, but it also connotes moral impurity, rebellion, and evil. Without grace, the consequences of sin involve wrath and death. More intriguingly, in Aramaic "sin" means "debt" and may imply that I owe God the surrendered life of service I denied Him by my willful separation. If we're going to use biblical terms, we need to take biblical meanings seriously.

 

[revsdd]

These two words that pertain to religion I feel need an updated way of understanding them. (Let's face it, the two don't come up in general conversation these days!)

A friend sent my some writing of Paul Tillich - where he tackles this very problem, and I thought it would lead to some reflection.

To Tillich, "sin" is just another word for separation. It isn't so much what we do - but the experience of being separated from God, ourselves and each other.
We know that feeling - and it doesn't feel good!

Sin and grace are bound together - and grace is the return to connection. Connection to God, ourselves and each other.

Simplified perhaps, but I know in my own life I feel either connected or separated. They are the two essential states of being, are they not?

Paul Tillich has never really turned my theological crank to be perfectly honest. Although when I was doing my D.Min. in Chicago every now and then I would hang out with colleagues at a bar on 55th Street that Tillich apparently used to frequent. Does that count for anything?

Anyway, if what you've presented is a fair reflection of his views, then Tillich's wrong. Sin isn't separation, and it's very much what we do. The very mention of separation raises the question of where the separation came from. Separation is the result of sin; the consequence of humanity not being fully in communion with God. Grace is the unmerited action of God that breaks down the barrier that sin erects.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

To the two revs - methinks you understand separation more than perhaps you know - have you noticed that many of your posts seem aimed at finding fault with a post?
And what does that achieve? It separates me from you.
Yikes, you couple of sinners, now I feel like a sinner.

I suspect that there are many who are drawn to the unconditional love of God. As Jean Vanier observed, the number one question (even if it is not expressed) of we humans is "Do you love me?"

What best attributes do lay people look for in a minister or priest? Are they wedded to their own version of theology or do they seem to be a loving person?

 

[Luce NDs]

To the two revs - methinks you understand separation more than perhaps you know - have you noticed that many of your posts seem aimed at finding fault with a post?
And what does that achieve? It separates me from you.
Yikes, you couple of sinners, now I feel like a sinner.

I suspect that there are many who are drawn to the unconditional love of God. As Jean Vanier observed, the number one question (even if it is not expressed) of we humans is "Do you love me?"

What best attributes do lay people look for in a minister or priest? Are they wedded to their own version of theology or do they seem to be a loving person?

Consider the righteous have only us to put down as what\s left to compete with ... and they probably adhere to mushy Isis like Jae ... out to send the world to hell ... not realizing where we all are ...

Could they be potentially dood in as numbed by excess passion that drives away fey thoughts ... thus they take flight.

I've sensed encountering such dark thoughts out there while bodily unconscious ... numbed dude state? Woman may do that ... even after all that time ...

Beware of the dark lass that surrounds you at night ... rearranging previous experiences and empiric! Just so you won't know how it is ... really the mighty conned Real one ... runes a Bazaar in a oli land ... Vege based not petro led up ...

 

[Mystic]

PilgrimsProgress: "To the two revs - methinks you understand separation more than perhaps you know - have you noticed that many of your posts seem aimed at finding fault with a post? And what does that achieve? It separates me from you."

Yes, a good pastor's posts are intended to help the lay person separate from the minister and use that distance to gain perspective on flawed thinking that might be harmful to spiritual growth. And I know that your PilgrimsProgress nickname implies that you hope to grow spiritually just like John Bunyan intended. And no issue is more important to grasp accurately than sin and grace. Famed Christian author C. S. Lewis arrived late at an Oxford conference on comparative religion. As he entered the room, professors were asking about what doctrinal stress most distinguishes Christianity from world religions. Lewis quickly responded: That's easy--the grace of God!" The others agreed.

Pilgrim: "I suspect that there are many who are drawn to the unconditional love of God. As Jean Vanier observed, the number one question (even if it is not expressed) of we humans is "Do you love me?""

But if you don't grasp what it means to live a grace-based life, you can't really grasp or experience God's pure unconditional love. "Grace" (Greek: "charis") means both "gift" and "unmerited favor." The only proper response to grace is a life of gratitude for God's acceptance of you just the way you are as a result of your repentance. So how do I live a grace-based life of gratitude? By serving others not out of a sense of duty in which I collect applause in my mind for putting up with people, but out of a sense of privilege for the chance to make a positive difference. And as I serve, my mind is constantly bathed in the cleansing thought: "Give thanks in all circumstances (1 Thessalonians 5:17)."











Pilgrim: "What best attributes do lay people look for in a minister or priest? Are they wedded to their own version of theology or do they seem to be a loving person?"

The parishioners whose opinion is worth respecting want a preacher who tells them what they need to hear, not just what they want to hear. And if they care about a Christ-like pastor, they don't want one who is just a people-pleaser:
"Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you; for that is what their ancestors did for the false prophets (Luke 6:26)."

Paul understands the spirit of Jesus' teaching here very well:
"As we have said before, so now I repeat: if anyone preaches to you a Gospel contrary to the one you received, let that one be accursed. Am I now seeking human approval or God's approval? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people I would not be a servant of Christ (Galatians 1:9-10)."

 

[BetteTheRed]

I think that the problem is not separation. I think that the problem is the perception of separation.

I have had a very few mystical experiences in which I understood the unity of Creation. It's very clear to me that the Unity, the Godde-ness of the Web, is reality, and that our mentally-driven individuality is the false matrix.

 

[revsdd]

To the two revs - methinks you understand separation more than perhaps you know - have you noticed that many of your posts seem aimed at finding fault with a post?
And what does that achieve? It separates me from you.
Yikes, you couple of sinners, now I feel like a sinner.

I suspect that there are many who are drawn to the unconditional love of God. As Jean Vanier observed, the number one question (even if it is not expressed) of we humans is "Do you love me?"

What best attributes do lay people look for in a minister or priest? Are they wedded to their own version of theology or do they seem to be a loving person?

I found no "fault" with your post. I simply disagreed with Tillich and offered my opinion on sin and separation. I thought the purpose of WC2 was to discuss and exchange perspectives. Apparently you don't agree. From now on should I only post when I agree with you? And if someone disagreeing with you "separates" you from them then that's your issue, not mine. I don't necessarily feel "separated" from those who disagree with me. Honest and respectful disagreement is a healthy and productive thing. I will say, though, that it is not my goal in posting to either avoid "separation" or to be popular by simply say "yup" to every post.

Forgive me, but I have noticed that while you often speak of how polite Canadians are compared to Australians, who tell it like it is (and you seem to admire that "tell it like it is" attitude), you often seem to either take offence or become defensive whenever anyone disagrees with you and says that outright, even if politely and respectfully.

As for what qualities people look for in a pastor, I would hope it's a combination of honesty, integrity and compassion - someone who challenges them and doesn't just agree with them.