Sunday is coming...Crossing teh Red Sea

[blackbelt1961]

Jews, mostly, and hence part of the Chosen people, thereby making Gord's point for him.

because Jesus was a Jew?

 

[blackbelt1961]

Messianic Jews aren't Jews, they're Christians.

not according to Messianic Jews

Messianic Judaism is the term given to Jewish people who believe and have accepted Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) of Nazareth as the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. These Jewish people do not stop being Jewish, but they continue to remain strong in their Jewish identity, lifestyle and culture, while following Yeshua as He is revealed in the Brit Chadashah, the New Covenant. Many Messianic Jews refer to themselves as “completed Jews,” since they believe that their faith in the God of Israel has been “completed” or fulfilled in Yeshua.

 

[Mendalla]

because Jesus was a Jew?

Let's see. Born to a Jewish mother. Raised in a Jewish family. Amazed the temple elders with his understanding. Attended and even read the Torah in synagogue. Sounds Jewish to me. Even a lot of non-messianic Jews accept that much about him.

Gord contended:

After all the only witness we have that there is a Chosen People comes from those people

To which you responded:

and Jesus witness would be? and the Apostles would be?

To which I am contending that they are also Jews, making Gord's point that the only witness to the Jews being the "Chosen People" is that of the Jews themselves.

 

[BetteTheRed]

not according to Messianic Jews

Messianic Judaism is the term given to Jewish people who believe and have accepted Yeshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) of Nazareth as the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. These Jewish people do not stop being Jewish, but they continue to remain strong in their Jewish identity, lifestyle and culture, while following Yeshua as He is revealed in the Brit Chadashah, the New Covenant. Many Messianic Jews refer to themselves as “completed Jews,” since they believe that their faith in the God of Israel has been “completed” or fulfilled in Yeshua.

How about this, they're not accepted as Jews by the rest of Judaism. They are Jewish by self-definition only.

 

[blackbelt1961]

Let's see. Born to a Jewish mother. Raised in a Jewish family. Amazed the temple elders with his understanding. Attended and even read the Torah in synagogue. Sounds Jewish to me. Even a lot of non-messianic Jews accept that much about him.




Nice lets Continue shall we, Jesus a Jew ,

who Healed the sick,

raised the dead

forgave sinners

discharged debtors

fed the hungry

controlled the forces of nature

made lame men walk, blind men see, heals the lepers

predicts His death and Resurrection

500 see His new body,

Roman historians write about the event

promises the Spirit


and you and Gord want to put Jesus among other Jewish witnesses ?


really

 

[blackbelt1961]

How about this, they're not accepted as Jews by the rest of Judaism. They are Jewish by self-definition only.

Nothing new here, they can try and void all that makes them Jewish, birth, Tora, tradition ect , fact remains

there Jewish

 

[Mendalla]

ice lets Continue shall we, Jesus a Jew ,

who Healed the sick,

raised the dead

forgave sinners

discharged debtors

fed the hungry

controlled the forces of nature

made lame men walk, blind men see, heals the lepers

predicts His death and Resurrection

500 see His new body,

Roman historians write about the event

promises the Spirit

Nothing there that says he wasn't Jewish.

And I'm stopping there because I know where this is going, bb. We've been down this road too many times before. I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Take care and good night.

 

[Mendalla]

Nothing new here, they can try and void all that makes them Jewish, birth, Tora, tradition ect , fact remains

there Jewish

Bette may have overstated a bit, but the bottom line is that they are a minority viewpoint among Jews much as Christians who keep the Jewish Sabbath (7th Day Adventists) are a minority among Christians.

 

[blackbelt1961]

Nothing there that says he wasn't Jewish.

And I'm stopping there because I know where this is going, bb. We've been down this road too many times before. I won't convince you and you won't convince me. Take care and good night.

agreed he is Jewish, but His witness is a man to contend with

Night Mendalla

 

[blackbelt1961]

Bette may have overstated a bit, but the bottom line is that they are a minority viewpoint among Jews much as Christians who keep the Jewish Sabbath (7th Day Adventists) are a minority among Christians.

but minority or majority does not constitute truth , and the truth is , they are Jewish

 

[BetteTheRed]

Truth is, they CONSIDER themselves Jewish, which I already pointed out. Judaism doesn't consider them Jewish for the very important reason that Jews don't consider Christians to be monotheists and it's a cornerstone of their faith.

 

[Waterfall]

and they also don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. To them the Messiah will be another human being and hasn't come yet.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Absolutely, waterfall, but it's the Trinity that is the deal breaker for Jews, as I understand it. I've always found describing Christianity as monotheistic rather problematic.

 

[Waterfall]

Agree.....for Jews, the Messiah will not be divine but someone appointed by God through the line of David.

 

[revjohn]

Hi blackbelt1961

but minority or majority does not constitute truth

A very wise and valid point.

and the truth is , they are Jewish

I don't think so.

I think that the truth is that they claim to be Jewish and the claim is accepted by some and rejected by others.

What is at stake is not whether their claim is unassailable but whether or not they have a right to their identity.

And while that struggle will be ongoing if we are to take the Apostle's claim seriously in the Kingdom of God there is no advantage to being Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. The only identifier of any significance will be whether or not we are God's.

There is a concern that we Christians should not be in the habit of defining who is Jewish (we historically have a difficult time with deciding who is actually Christian). If we Christians cannot agree on who is or isn't a Christian it is pure folly for us to attempt to say who is or isn't a Jew. In the long-run such squabbling is a distraction from what should be our mission.

There is also the embarrassing spector that Christians insisting that Messianic Jews are Jews are really using Messianic Jews as an excuse to promote traditional distrust and hatred of non-Messianic Jews. We should, at all costs, not allow that optic to ever become visible.

Finally the same Apostle who said that there was no advantage to being Jew or Gentile in God's Kingdom is also the same one who listed impressive credentials making him a Hebrew of Hebrews and considered them sh*t (According to the Greek texts--Translations tend to clean the language up).

 

[Hermann]

I think tribal religion is a phase or stage in the evolution of human culture, a stage that is long past but nevertheless was meaningful to the people of its time.

Ethnocentric or even anthropocentric religion is, or should be, a thing of the past. A necessary albeit past stage in the evolution of human culture.

 

[Hermann]

The metaphor of the "Chosen People" could be expanded to mean not chosen by God but chosen by ourselves.

Even if God did participates in that choice, God can't choose us against our will. In order to be chosen by God, we must first choose ourselves to be chosen.

If we choose ourselves as servants of the whole, of all of creation, then we are among the "Chosen People," whether we believe in God or not.

 

[revjohn]

The metaphor of the "Chosen People" could be expanded to mean not chosen by God but chosen by ourselves.

Well it could. But only if people decided words have no meaning. And if that is the case communication is going to get much more difficult.

 

[Inukshuk]

The problem with that metaphorical analysis is that it immediately follows God slaughtering every Egyptian's first born, and that strikes me a clear indication of taking sides. Worse, God engineered it, because he keeps on talking about hardening Pharoah's heart, so that these ever more gut-wrenchingly awful plagues are necessary.

I don't see the problem. Symbolically and, as Gord W wrote, with 'a germ of remembered history' the Passover narrative is brilliant and I see it as God's most radical cry for human justice in the Hebrew Scriptures. (It's important to remember that the Passover/Exodus event was foretold in Genesis 15.) Egypt was a primogeniture society - a hierarchy that gave absolute power to the unnamed Pharaoh (the first born, of a first born, of a first born...) - that power trickled down through all the first borns, the siblings and the lower classes, who were also able to dominate and control the slaves. The elimination of the 'first borns' causes the Egyptian hierarchy to fall apart and leads to God's vision of equality for all of humankind.

 

[airclean33]

Hi GordW---This taken from your post above.
I find this a difficult story to preach. I mean theoretically I know that at this point in time the Scripture is still revealing a God who is a family/tribal/national God, not the God who is God of all the nations. And I know that the idea of the family/tribal/national God fighting on behalf of the people is common to many ancient mythologies. But still is the God we follow, the God in whom we live and move and have our being, the God we meet in Christ and attested to by the witness of the communion of saints this tribal and vindictive and cruel?

My preaching question is Does God take sides?
YEPPPP
AIRCLEAN---I wonder Gord were you see those things you do.Where do you believe our GOD changed? Our GOD has a chosen people . You join Abrahams promise or you are lost.Do you know Christ came in the form of The Lamb. If you really wish to see Christ as He is. Read Rev. He is a King , Leader of Kings. He is a Lord of Lords. He will rule the earth with a rod of iron. If your last part is true . You have a hold of the wrong GOD. Have a look Gord. God Bless --airclean33 P-S Here are some that may help..
Rev5: 9--10
Rev2: 2
1-Cor6:2-3
1-Pet2:9-10
Luke9:-54
Math26:-53
Jude 24-25