God in our Image?

[PilgrimsProgress]

Just read Crazyheart's post on the lesbian's open letter to her parent's pastor - and thought it might be a good time to revisit an idea that's preoccupying me at the moment..........

"We invent a God in our image and then we worship that God because that God legitimises the way we want to be." - Emile Durkheim

Do you agree/disagree with this?

If you can see the logic of this statement, is it a gentle warning that, whatever our beliefs, there should be room for uncertainty, or, at the least, humility?

Time and time again we read of fundamentalist of all faiths justifying racism, homophobia, murder because of their faith.
And, at the same time, I've seen many progressives twist themselves into pretzels cherry picking the Bible for "God is love" messages.

 

[Jaebius]

Just read Crazyheart's post on the lesbian's open letter to her parent's pastor - and thought it might be a good time to revisit an idea that's preoccupying me at the moment..........

"We invent a God in our image and then we worship that God because that God legitimises the way we want to be." - Emile Durkheim

Do you agree/disagree with this?

I agree with it to some extent. I think that the true God was not invented by human beings, however I acknowledge that we do tend to think of God in our own ways. I think that our culture can absolutely affect the way we think of God.

If you can see the logic of this statement, is it a gentle warning that, whatever our beliefs, there should be room for uncertainty, or, at the least, humility?

There should always be room for humility.

Time and time again we read of fundamentalist of all faiths justifying racism, homophobia, murder because of their faith.
And, at the same time, I've seen many progressives twist themselves into pretzels cherry picking the Bible for "God is love" messages.

Quite a dichotomy you've drawn up there. Fundamentalists who are interested in racism, homophobia, and murder vs. progressives who are interested in love.

 

[Luce NDs]

Can one love:

• racism
• homophobia
• murder
• etc.?

Can you imagine such implicit cases of where people can't get beyond the self in narcissism that affects society? Tis a pragmatic effect ... if applied without intelligence would that be Strangelove? Thus brutish affairs with we the people ...

Few oligarchs see us ... tis a principality of blocked or shrouded nature ... dark!

 

[Seeler]

I think that when the ancient peoples, and modeern people too, contemplated the Holy they found that they related best to a figure such as they were themselves, only bigger, more powerful and more magestic. Thus they pictured God as something like themselves but reversed the idea of creating god in their image, to God creating them in God's image. So in history in some parts of the world we found images of God as a fertile female. In other parts of history and the world we find God described very much as a worrier king. Then Jesus came and walked on earth and people saw God in the person of Jesus - but Jesus, the Mediterraen Jew, became a brown haired well groomed European, a picture many of us carry in our mind's eye. I think this was what was shocking to many people about the book/movie 'The Shack' - they couldn't picture God as a fat, jolly, black female.

 

[Jaebius]

I think that when the ancient peoples, and modeern people too, contemplated the Holy they found that they related best to a figure such as they were themselves, only bigger, more powerful and more magestic. Thus they pictured God as something like themselves but reversed the idea of creating god in their image, to God creating them in God's image. So in history in some parts of the world we found images of God as a fertile female. In other parts of history and the world we find God described very much as a worrier king. Then Jesus came and walked on earth and people saw God in the person of Jesus - but Jesus, the Mediterraen Jew, became a brown haired well groomed European, a picture many of us carry in our mind's eye. I think this was what was shocking to many people about the book/movie 'The Shack' - they couldn't picture God as a fat, jolly, black female.

The thing about the book/movie "The Shack" is that...

Spoiler: Spoiler Alert

God is not pictured "as a fat, jolly, black female." Rather, the protagonist imagines God the Father "as a fat, jolly, black female" when he is unconscious.

This is why I don't see why so many have a problem with the book/movie.

 

[Mendalla]

I wish I had written out my sermon on "The Faces of God" from a decade or so ago. I could just post it as my response.

Basically, I took the tack that The Divine represents something complex beyond human reason or imagining so we have to put "Faces" on it to be able to relate to it. Naturally, those are often human faces of some form, whether it's gods and goddesses of polytheistic traditions, the Father and Son parts of the Trinity, and so on. Familiar natural images like the Sun (e.g. in Egyptian Atenism) come up a lot, too. The images do not so much define God, then, as how we relate to God. And there is always room for new "faces" or learning from others' "faces". Ended with a discussion of Jesus and how putting the face of a baby (in the birth narrative) on The Divine affects our relationship to it and also on Jesus' "when you do so unto the least of these..." line and how that, in a way, invites us to see all humans as faces of The Divine.

This was a UU sermon but with perhaps a bit more Christian content than usual.

 

[revsdd]

"We invent a God in our image and then we worship that God because that God legitimises the way we want to be." - Emile Durkheim

Do you agree/disagree with this?


If you can see the logic of this statement, is it a gentle warning that, whatever our beliefs, there should be room for uncertainty, or, at the least, humility?

Time and time again we read of fundamentalist of all faiths justifying racism, homophobia, murder because of their faith.
And, at the same time, I've seen many progressives twist themselves into pretzels cherry picking the Bible for "God is love" messages.

First I would obviously say that "God" is not an invention.

Next, I would say that any specific "image" we use to represent God is an invention of sorts, since God is more than we can possibly imagine. With that limitation, from my perspective the clearest representation we have of God's nature is the life of Jesus recorded in the Gospels. But we cannot fathom the nature of God fully, so there is always a danger in assuming that we have ever truly captured who or what God is. We see as in a mirror, as Paul said - a two dimensional image of ourselves which isn't reality but which is a decent representation.

As for the specific quote, while that is an arguable position another arguable position would be that we invent a god in our image and then we worship that God because that God legitimises the way we are. In fact, a problem with Durkheim's position would seem to me to be that if God is in some way representative (and therefore legitimising) of what we want to be, then we haven't created God "in our image," but rather in an idealized image.

All this said, there is certainly room for humility. There must be.

 

[unsafe]

PilgrimsProgress ------your quote -----I've seen many progressives twist themselves into pretzels cherry picking the Bible for "God is love" messages.

unsafe says---this is my view and posted scripture ----Many invent their own God in their own imagination ----The Bible clearly describes who God is and what He is like -----

Exodus 34 NIV
“The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, {7} maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.”

(Numbers 23:19 NIV)
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?


unsafe says
Actually this is what the scripture clearly states about God is love ----and you don't have to do much twisting to find it -----8 The one who does not love has not become acquainted with God for God is love

The Love here is Agape ---not love that we humans can display without God in us -----so grouping people into groups like this world does --progressive and fundamentalist ----etc has no baring on real Godly Love ----A person can only have Agape if they have the Holy Spirit ---


unsafe posted scripture and word meaning

This is the word used in the scripture below ---- The one who does not love ἀγαπῶν agapōn 25 to love ------Cognate: 25 agapáō – properly, to prefer, to love; for the believer, preferring to "live through Christ"

1 John 4:8Amplified Bible (AMP)
8 The one who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love. [He is the originator of love, and it is an enduring attribute of His nature.]

unsafe says ----
So all the people and Religions who have problems with people being different and rejecting them have not Agape in them and are not acquainted with God nor do they know God of the Bible in my view ------they are acquainted with their own invented god of their imagination cause that god legitimises the way they want to be------divided into Groups ---progressives or fundamentalist ----liberal ---conservative etc---all in the name of Christianity Religion ----


The world needs to stop creating all these different terms for Christians ----- We are either a Christ--ian or were are not ----there are only 2 worlds This world and God's world ----your either in one or the other -----you can't serve both ------we can think we can but we are only fooling ourselves---and if we think we can Agape others without God in us we are only fooling ourselves ------

 

[revjohn]

Do you agree/disagree with this?

I am inclined to agree with Durkheim on matters of sociology. I don't recognize him as an expert with respect to theology.

Which results in some nuance with respect to his thoughts on the matter.

With respect to religion as social event I think Durkheim makes some solid observations.

With respect to the nature of God I think Durkheim defaults to an enlightenment disdain for religion and as such is predisposed to think of it in enlightenment terms.

If you can see the logic of this statement, is it a gentle warning that, whatever our beliefs, there should be room for uncertainty, or, at the least, humility?

Well, yes and no.

If you see the logic of the statement you see that there is nothing about God that is not subjective. I disagree with that premise. There is, I believe, something outside of myself which is God and as such I am obligated to deal with it on its terms as much as my own. Any theologian worth their salt warns against creating a comfortable God because that God does not, ultimately, define the world so much as that God is defined by the world. As such, God can never be anything "other." Most theology posits God as possessing transcendence meaning, God is "other" at some level.

Time and time again we read of fundamentalist of all faiths justifying racism, homophobia, murder because of their faith.
And, at the same time, I've seen many progressives twist themselves into pretzels cherry picking the Bible for "God is love" messages.

And the result is confirmation bias. Fundamentalists are happy with their God particularly when they get to ignore texts which challenge them. Progressives (especially those prone to their own form of fundamentalism) are happy with their God particularly when they get to ignore texts which challenge them.

Neither are particularly admirable in that they refuse to contend with what challenges preconception. At this point they are busily attempting to build a God of their own liking and engaging in bad/weak/poor/deficient theology. I don't know if that results in exemplary sociology or not. I think it must be missing something but Durkheim isn't around to engage on that point.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

Thanks for the responses......
Like Durkheim, I've noticed here on Wondercafe 2 the connection with how folks see God, mirrors their own beliefs.

Mia Culpa - EXCEPT my -for want of a better term - religious experience.
A the time, my prayer was one of desperation, a prayer because at the time I felt there was nowhere else to turn.
I did not expect a response, so nobody was more shocked than I to get positive response. It was a moment that I won't forget - God existed and we are all connected.
Perhaps there are times when we should doubt ourselves and our knowledge?

 

[Luce NDs]

Thanks for the responses......
Like Durkheim, I've noticed here on Wondercafe 2 the connection with how folks see God, mirrors their own beliefs.

Mia Culpa - EXCEPT my -for want of a better term - religious experience.
A the time, my prayer was one of desperation, a prayer because at the time I felt there was nowhere else to turn.
I did not expect a response, so nobody was more shocked than I to get positive response. It was a moment that I won't forget - God existed and we are all connected.
Perhaps there are times when we should doubt ourselves and our knowledge?

Is religious experience just outside a fixed understanding and thus akin to a ridiculous OBI, or NDE ... albeit until one encounters such quarks considered queer before they are impacted by one og those things that are yet beyond eM?

Tis may leave one broken down in RIFF's and RAFTs of laughter ... considered evil in the courts of mortal gods as they reset morals ... without a pole to stand on as a mast to see further on the well rounded horizon ... B-aum Eire!

Even Murphy's Law can be confined until the brain lobe is reduced ... leaving the hinder most parts to take off ... eternal wanderer or just a beautiful aspiration as dark to those believing they are on top 've their dreams ... things not prone to control or avarice ... thus ava' long time for unravelling the-in finite past ... time in a bottle? Could it be a' Jaerd?

WEIrd contained AI on the road ... essence or a sense that we mist something ... thus clouded Ayres men ...

 

[Delightful Life]

Thanks for the responses......
Like Durkheim, I've noticed here on Wondercafe 2 the connection with how folks see God, mirrors their own beliefs.

Mia Culpa - EXCEPT my -for want of a better term - religious experience.
A the time, my prayer was one of desperation, a prayer because at the time I felt there was nowhere else to turn.
I did not expect a response, so nobody was more shocked than I to get positive response. It was a moment that I won't forget - God existed and we are all connected.
Perhaps there are times when we should doubt ourselves and our knowledge?

Like learn how to get out of one's own way and just let the experience happen?
I find that helps with listening to others for me...

 

[Delightful Life]

"We invent a God in our image and then we worship that God because that God legitimises the way we want to be." - Emile Durkheim

Do you agree/disagree with this?

GO

DEEPER emile



Truth exists and doesn't care what we want or love or are afraid of or whatever genetic fallacy ("oh theyre iron age people what did they know?", "oh they believe homosexuality is a sin therefore they hate me and are homophobes" etc etc etc) and other biases we use

Humanity has been around for a very long time. We are constantly pushing back our age (if only I could do that Id bottle it and KEEP IT 4 MYSELF mua haha). Non human agents have been involved with us also for a very very long time.

The Truth shall set you free.

Also I think that different congregations r there voluntarily and people should never be shamed. Not everyone can turn their beliefs on and off LOL!!!

We can all live together, treat each other as human beings, help each other out when needed, and we don't have to share each other's worldview or lifestyle. Government should be here 4 mainly to protect us from each other (so we don't make our worldviewz into law or zomeone elses against the law).

Before you fix anyone else or some aspect of society, fix yourself first, then your room, and out from there

LA DI DAH!!!

 

[Waterfall]

"We invent a God in our image and then we worship that God because that God legitimises the way we want to be." - Emile Durkheim

Do you agree/disagree with this?

Disagree, too simplistic but I do think that culture and history, among a multitude of other variables, have the capability to influence our thinking and undermine God.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

Disagree, too simplistic but I do think that culture and history, among a multitude of other variables, have the capability to influence our thinking and undermine God.

Don't you wonder why God's values and morality seem to be the same as the person espousing them? Doesn't that explain why "God's values" seem to be very different, depending on who you are talking too?

I'm a follower, but I have enough doubt to wonder if I still would be, if it could be proved (which it can't) that God categorically was against, say, same sex marriage?

 

[Pavlos Maros]

"We invent a God in our image and then we worship that God because that God legitimises the way we want to be." - Emile Durkheim

Do you agree/disagree with this?

Agree! The world is supposedly four fifth religious. that means that there are six billion gods. SPAG Self projection as god, or cafeteria christianity, or vicarious autotheism. whatever you choose it all means the same. Every bodies god is is just like they are.

 

[revsdd]

Don't you wonder why God's values and morality seem to be the same as the person espousing them? Doesn't that explain why "God's values" seem to be very different, depending on who you are talking too?

I'm a follower, but I have enough doubt to wonder if I still would be, if it could be proved (which it can't) that God categorically was against, say, same sex marriage?

That doesn't, however, take into account conversion experiences, in which people have come to faith in God and that faith in that God has resulted in a significant change in their moral outlook and values. So they haven't simply created a God who agrees with them; they have had their values re-oriented through some sort of experience.

 

[Jaebius]

Don't you wonder why God's values and morality seem to be the same as the person espousing them? Doesn't that explain why "God's values" seem to be very different, depending on who you are talking too?

I'm a follower, but I have enough doubt to wonder if I still would be, if it could be proved (which it can't) that God categorically was against, say, same sex marriage?

Which did God create - Adam and Eve, or Adam and Steve?

 

[revjohn]

Which did God create - Adam and Eve, or Adam and Steve?

If God did not create Steve then who is Steve's Creator?

 

[Luce NDs]

Probably just a god's pot ...