UCCan Statement on Medical Assistance in Dying

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DaisyJane said:
Oh. Yes. Let's play competitive suffering until you win. Because that is what this is about for you.

Feel free to ban me for this.

F*ck off.

.
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I didn't say your experiences were not important or difficult, or sad. I said they were different from the experiences of capable minded adults living with disabilities daily who have had the terrifying experience of having what their lives depended on cut off from them as a result of bureaucracy. Several people in BC - the numbers were shocking but I can't remember to quote them -committed suicide after their disability supports were cut off. If we are talking about the adults who are protesting who are fearful about this - they know what it is like to depend on support to stay alive and are afraid of abuses and of the unravelling of available supports due to bureaucracy and economics. NOBODY CARES WHAT I AM SAYING OR WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT. You can tell me to f*** off. You can tell me I don't care. It's not true, but...That's fine.
 
BetteTheRed said:
It's actually a bit hilarious. Kimmio is convinced that the boomers are what is holding humanity back from its full loving wonderfulness, yet doesn't think they should be given the right to exit with dignity. Which is it, please? You'd like us to retire, but then hang on in pain to make you feel good about your humanity?
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No. I'd like this to be limited to terminal illness where pain control is not an option. Not be opened up to more and more people.
 
chansen said:
Kimmio, read DaisyJane's post #103 again. You "liked" it, but I don't think you "got" it.

I stand by my point that you are more likely to incite people to want to kill disabled people than it is that you save a single disabled person from anything. Your methods are atrocious. Like DJ wrote, you use a paint splatter approach and you make sweeping accusations at people who have the best intentions and have been through hell themselves. You even say "Chansen said people like me shouldn't be allowed to discuss our views on it." That's crap. I've always said it was how you argue your points. I care about a lot of the same things you do, and it embarrasses me how you make a hash of things I consider important. I probably only disagree with 25% of what you say here, but I disagree with 100% of how you say it.
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That is so f***ed up of you to say. And it's not what you originally said, either.
 
Kimmio said:
I didn't say your experiences were not important or difficult, or sad. I said they were different from the experiences of capable minded adults living with disabilities daily who have had the terrifying experience of having what their lives depended on cut off from them as a result of bureaucracy. Several people in BC - the numbers were shocking but I can't remember to quote them -committed suicide after their disability supports were cut off. If we are talking about the adults who are protesting who are fearful about this - they know what it is like to depend on support to stay alive and are afraid of abuses and of the unravelling of available supports due to bureaucracy and economics. NOBODY CARES WHAT I AM SAYING OR WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT. You can tell me to f*** off. You can tell me I don't care. It's not true, but...That's fine.
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To be clear, you said "You are also not one of those who has lived through or close to living through some of the terrifying negatives that exists for people with disabilities."

So, maybe you need to re-read your post? and think on the way you discount any experience but your own.
 
I was talking about some specific terrifying negatives. It may seem like it...but it's not a far stretch from having benefits cut off, to being forced to "choose" suicide for economic and social support reasons. And if bureaucrats get the buy in of an aging population who wants it and has the clout...the marginalized and their full inclusion rights become collateral damage. That is terrifying.
 
Yeah, I'm f***ed up.

Just stop, Kimmio. You've lost the entire forum. You can not step back and see what you're doing to yourself and your cause. That's my point. Read what DaisyJane wrote to you. Read every post as many times as you replied to them. Stop typing, stop taking offense to everything, and read. And think about who you're arguing with, and what their experiences are. Consider how much different it really is between being disabled and caring for a disabled child. Consider what a parent would do to trade places with their child if they could.

You've screwed up here, royally.
 
Pinga said:
To be clear, you said "You are also not one of those who has lived through or close to living through some of the terrifying negatives that exists for people with disabilities."
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It seems very possible that when @Kimmio wrote, "...people with disabilities" she was thinking of adults with disabilities. This would go along with her later, "I said they were different from the experiences of capable minded adults living with disabilities..."
 
So for the record I have now poured myself a glass of wine. I tried to engage constructively. I really and truly did.

But I get Kimmio. I really do.

Her experiences are so vast, but also so unique, that she is an expert on everything related to disability. It doesn't matter that many of us also have experience and knowledge, our experiences and knowledge cannot compete with hers. She wins. She has the most experience with suffering. She lives with disability and therefore knows it best. She knows all, and her opinions and thoughts should reign supreme.

We are heading to a totalitarian regime where eugenics will be a fact and it will be open season on people with disabilities. She knows this.

(and since this is on-screen where body language and tone is lost, read those last sentences with a heavy dose of sarcasm)
 
chansen said:
Yeah, I'm f***ed up.

Just stop, Kimmio. You've lost the entire forum. You can not step back and see what you're doing to yourself and your cause. That's my point. Read what DaisyJane wrote to you. Read every post as many times as you replied to them. Stop typing, stop taking offense to everything, and read. And think about who you're arguing with, and what their experiences are. Consider how much different it really is between being disabled and caring for a disabled child. Consider what a parent would do to trade places with their child if they could.

You've screwed up here, royally.
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Throw it back on me. I'm not in support of anyone with disabilities dying needlessly. I'm adamantly against it, I see dangers in the slippery slope, and you want to turn me into a tyrant after what you said and won't apologize for. And all I've been doing is discussing the dissenting disability rights position. How would you like me to talk about it differently?
 
By acknowledging that your position is simply one of many, all worthy of dignity. My friend's father, articulate enough in his late 80s, sure wishes his demented wife had let him go last year...
 
DaisyJane said:
So for the record I have now poured myself a glass of wine. I tried to engage constructively. I really and truly did.

But I get Kimmio. I really do.

Her experiences are so vast, but also so unique, that she is an expert on everything related to disability. It doesn't matter that many of us also have experience and knowledge, our experiences and knowledge cannot compete with her. She wins. She has the most experience with suffering. She lives with disability and therefore knows it best. She knows all, and her opinions and thoughts should reign supreme.

We are heading to a totalitarian regime where eugenics will be a fact and it will be open season on people with disabilities. She knows this.

(and since this is on-screen where body language and tone is lost, read those last sentences with a heavy dose of sarcasm)
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I never said that either. I never said your experiences were not important. You can lay on the sarcasm but we are discussing two different sets of problems.

This issue - the dissenting side on it - is about capable minded but vulnerable adults with disabilities fearful about political, social and economic decisions being made that impact them, without them. Or, without them having the platform or voice to oppose due to invisibility of their concerns and lack of capital.
 
"I never said your experiences were not important".

I suppose you are right. You said my experiences were irrelevant.

Kind of the same thing, though.
 
Kimmio said:
I didn't say your experiences were not important or difficult, or sad. I said they were different from the experiences of capable minded adults living with disabilities daily who have had the terrifying experience of having what their lives depended on cut off from them as a result of bureaucracy. Several people in BC - the numbers were shocking but I can't remember to quote them -committed suicide after their disability supports were cut off. If we are talking about the adults who are protesting who are fearful about this - they know what it is like to depend on support to stay alive and are afraid of abuses and of the unravelling of available supports due to bureaucracy and economics. NOBODY CARES WHAT I AM SAYING OR WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT. You can tell me to f*** off. You can tell me I don't care. It's not true, but...That's fine.
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What about my experiences then? Do those count? I support it.
 
DaisyJane said:
"I never said your experiences were not important".

I suppose you are right. You said my experiences were irrelevant.

Kind of the same thing, though.
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I didn't. You and others here have said that my view is irrelevant. You have said there's no reason for people with disabilities to be concerned about the slippery slope or economic and political motivators driving MAID. You have said that you know better from your experiences and you made mine irrelevant with sarcasm. You didn't stick your neck out over the more horrible suggestions made toward me and people with disabilities ...so I don't know if you meant to validate those. I don't think so. I don't think I said anything to deserve comments like that. I don't think you purposely ignored it (you or anyone else). But your own position on the issue perhaps prevented you from absorbing those words.

I do not think that your road has been easy or that your views mean nothing. They don't address the fears of capable minded adults living with disabilities aware of how vulnerable they are, though. That is what the other side of the debate is about. And it's not about me alone. I just happen to be the only one here coming at it from this perspective.

This issue is also one of competing political ideologies. As I mentioned, it wasn't that long ago that the idea of "full citizenship and inclusion" was introduced and was supposed to inform all aspects of government decisions and rights impacting people with disabilities - and includes ratification of the UN Convention. This was driven by the knowledge that an aging population would benefit, and that would in turn benefit the cause of disability rights groups who have long advocated for this but lacked the capital. That is a fact.

Then, along comes Dying With Dignity - and far better resourced lobby group with a one issue agenda - who also piggybacked on the idea that the aging population would want this. And they won. They turned the right to die into an inclusion issue using the very same argument that disability rights groups advanced to get their inclusion in the participation of life in society - including economic life - recognized. That they won, does nothing to quell concerns about how it could be abused, or other rights eroded.

I don't see my position as being far fetched or extreme...or how I am causing people to hate people with disabilities. That is extremely unfair.
 
I was wondering why you were thanking me, but it appears you were thanking Jae. Jae will latch on to unpopular positions just to mess with people, so when you have his support, that should raise an eyebrow. I know it won't, but on the misguided thought that you might consider something I write, I'll put it out there.

I should have let the flags and moderator action go and made good my intended escape from this thread earlier today. I let it drag me back in.

Like DaisyJane said, I can respect what you've been through, even if I don't completely understand it. If I don't understand your experiences completely, then you don't understand mine. You haven't held your son's hand while he writhed and cried in dystonic pain for hours every day, for weeks, knowing his heart could give out at any time, being told to expect it, and wondering if there was anything to gain for all the misery. And my two year experience in this world is dwarfed by DaisyJane's journey with her son.

You don't understand either of us, and you demean our experiences and our input. You summarily dismiss any opinion on this topic you don't agree with. You use slippery slope and fear-based arguments like a religious fundamentalist. This is all backfiring and alienating you from support, quite predictably.

Now I really am done with you on this. There is no point of view to exchange with you - only yours is relevant. And that's why you'll never convince anyone.
 
As i sit here, i think of @Seeler as she walks the journey of her illness, and what she has shared.
I think of @chansen, @DaisyJane who have seen the complexities of life in their own family, lived, experienced, and those who shared the same hospital wards, wings. They both have spent more time in hospitals, sharing time with others whose children face complex care / decisions.
I think of people like @BetteTheRed sharing stories of pain and choices around terminal illness.
Then, there are folks like my Mom who was ready to go, getting weaker and weaker with terminal illness, and their thoughts regarding end of life.
Then, those with dementia, and the challenges about having to be competent to make your decision.

I am thankful for the folks who take time to explore the nuances of life, of death, and the decisions to go from one to the other.
 
chansen said:
I was wondering why you were thanking me, but it appears you were thanking Jae. Jae will latch on to unpopular positions just to mess with people, so when you have his support, that should raise an eyebrow. I know it won't, but on the misguided thought that you might consider something I write, I'll put it out there.
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As I understand it chansen, @Kimmio was not thanking me for holding any position, but rather for striving to understand where she was coming from.
 
As i sit here, i think of @Seeler as she walks the journey of her illness, and what she has shared.
I think of @chansen, @DaisyJane who have seen the complexities of life in their own family, lived, experienced, and those who shared the same hospital wards, wings. They both have spent more time in hospitals, sharing time with others whose children face complex care / decisions.
I think of people like @BetteTheRed sharing stories of pain and choices around terminal illness.
Then, there are folks like my Mom who was ready to go, getting weaker and weaker with terminal illness, and their thoughts regarding end of life.
Then, those with dementia, and the challenges about having to be competent to make your decision.

I am thankful for the folks who take time to explore the nuances of life, of death, and the decisions to go from one to the other.
 
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