UCCan Statement on Medical Assistance in Dying

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Well, except that, we all know that we "can't talk to Kimmio about this topic" and I find it a bit ridiculous. Kimmio, my mother 'died of' a devastating stroke that took 4 1/2 years to kill her. She cried to me constantly that "Godde hadn't finished what He [sic] started".

Are we an insular enough community that certain topics, like legally assisted dying, cannot be discussed?
 
Kimmio said:
You said it. I was shocked by it. It was probably the worst comment I've read from you, and hurtful and disconcerting. It wasn't okay. I was just going to quote it thinking maybe it was a dark joke - but then I quickly decided it was worth flagging - and it was removed, which was a good decision. I really don't do that often.

I'm not out to kill goodwill toward the disabled community. Why is it my responsibility to create goodwill for the disabled community by agreeing with MAID? Why do we have to earn goodwill among the able-bodied just to live our lives with needs met? If you take my views on this subject that way, as harming goodwill, that's your problem. And if others have that same problem, where was the goodwill in the first place?

Interesting, rather than apologize, you throw more shade at me. It was a horrible thing to say to me, and not only me, and if you didn't mean it then just apologize. @chansen
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Not a chance. You're actively working against two things I think are compassionate and important. The sentence that freaked you out was nothing compared to the damage you do to the cause you claim to passionately support.

As for me not recognizing my post would trigger Kimmio, on this topic, what opposing viewpoint *doesn't* trigger Kimmio?
 
Kimmio.

We have been down this road before and you are incredibly passionate. I get that and I respect that.

But I find you tend to approach this argument by throwing anything you can think of into the mix and hoping something sticks and sways the opinions of others. In actual fact I find that approach not only diminishes your argument, but can alienate other people who are genuinely concerned about people with disabilities. At times I find your ideas difficult to follow, and your concern about people with disabilities gets lost in the splatter paint approach to the discussion.

I respect you have strong feelings about this and you feel threatened. I don't think you have anything to worry about, but then it really doesn't matter what I think. I think MAID is a good and ethical approach to a brutally difficult decision. As someone, like you, who lives and works extensively in the disability community, and in particular moves in the area that deals with ethics, I don't see the slippery slope you talk about. I really don't. If anything I see a widening conversation about key topics such as life and death and quality of life and suffering. I think that is a very good thing and can only help people with disabilities.
 
chansen said:
Not a chance. You're actively working against two things I think are compassionate and important. The sentence that freaked you out was nothing compared to the damage you do to the cause you claim to passionately support.

As for me not recognizing my post would trigger Kimmio, on this topic, what opposing viewpoint *doesn't* trigger Kimmio?
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I'd be surprised if a post like that didn't really bother somebody else. I mean, so much for people with disabilities feeling welcome here if it was allowed to stand. I'm harming goodwill? What you said, you don't think harms goodwill? It's a good thing it's gone.

I don't see how my views cause damage to goodwill for people with disabilities unless it was already absent - which it is in many ways. But that doesn't mean supporting MAID is something I should be required to give into in order to maintain it. That's ridiculous.
 
Absolutely nothing is perfect and we do not live in a perfect world. But I do not see the terrifying negatives that you see.

Will a mistake be made? Probably. However many mistakes have been made in terms of human suffering by NOT having MAID.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Well, except that, we all know that we "can't talk to Kimmio about this topic" and I find it a bit ridiculous. Kimmio, my mother 'died of' a devastating stroke that took 4 1/2 years to kill her. She cried to me constantly that "Godde hadn't finished what He [sic] started".

Are we an insular enough community that certain topics, like legally assisted dying, cannot be discussed?
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Nobody said it can't be discussed. Well, Chansen said people like me shouldn't be allowed to discuss our views on it. I never said it can't be discussed. If you expect not to have dissenting opinion on a serious issue - that's ridiculous. Then everybody can just agree with each other and feel good about it. What about those like me whose conscience is really bothered by it. We should just shut up and go away I guess.
 
DaisyJane said:
Absolutely nothing is perfect and we do not live in a perfect world. But I do not see the terrifying negatives that you see.

Will a mistake be made? Probably. However many mistakes have been made in terms of human suffering by NOT having MAID.
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That's good. You are also not one of those who has lived through or close to living through some of the terrifying negatives that exists for people with disabilities. We are vulnerable to having decisions made that negatively affect us, without our consultation or agreement. And as a whole we are not a group with the financing and clout that the Dying With Dignity cohort has. You live through some different negatives. But that does not invalidate my concerns.
 
I had an aunt (honorary, a good friend of my mom's and a woman I was very close to) die of pancreatic cancer in the 80s without morphine. That was a painful mistake.
 
Kimmio said:
I'd be surprised if a post like that didn't really bother somebody else. I mean, so much for people with disabilities feeling welcome here if it was allowed to stand. I'm harming goodwill? What you said, you don't think harms goodwill? It's a good thing it's gone.

I don't see how my views cause damage to goodwill for people with disabilities unless it was already absent - which it is in many ways. But that doesn't mean supporting MAID is something I should be required to give into in order to maintain it. That's ridiculous.
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Kimmio, read DaisyJane's post #103 again. You "liked" it, but I don't think you "got" it.

I stand by my point that you are more likely to incite people to want to kill disabled people than it is that you save a single disabled person from anything. Your methods are atrocious. Like DJ wrote, you use a paint splatter approach and you make sweeping accusations at people who have the best intentions and have been through hell themselves. You even say "Chansen said people like me shouldn't be allowed to discuss our views on it." That's crap. I've always said it was how you argue your points. I care about a lot of the same things you do, and it embarrasses me how you make a hash of things I consider important. I probably only disagree with 25% of what you say here, but I disagree with 100% of how you say it.
 
Kimmio said:
That's good. You are also not one of those who has lived through or close to living through some of the terrifying negatives that exists for people with disabilities. We are vulnerable to having decisions made that negatively affect us, without our consultation or agreement. And as a whole we are not a group with the financing and clout that the Dying With Dignity cohort has. You live through some different negatives. But that does not invalidate my concerns.
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Yup. Now I am pissed off.

ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME? What on earth do you mean by that? Should I start enumerating? I am the parent of a profoundly disabled, medically fragile child. I have been involved in more end of life conversations than I care to think about. I have held my child down during medical interventions while he screamed through moments he will never understand. For him it was simply pain and terror. I watched him suffer for years. I have had to demand doctors medicate his pain. Pain they were reluctant to treat because they did not understand it. How dare you suggest that simply because I am not the one with the disability that any pain or limitations my son feels do not permanently imprint on my soul and body.

You suggest you care about people with disabilities. I get the sense that you care more about winning the argument.

I rarely resort to profanity. But right now I really want to.
 
Pinga said:
say what? DaisyJane has not lived close to them? Are you serious?
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In terms of being an adult with a disability herself, dealing with how draconian the system can be, no. She has not. She has also not experienced the prejudices toward "full citizenship" first hand as someone - she is not a capable minded adult, with a disability herself, living with it daily. Her views are from an entirely different experience.

She is not, for example, one of the several who committed suicide in BC when their benefits where suddenly cut off our denied by red tape changes - or the friends and families who lost those people, or one of the advocates working when that happened. I came along after, but it was no less heartbreaking.
 
Kimmio - please stop. This 'who's got it worse' line of discussion is unhelpful to you and all involved. It is 'right fighting' - lots of damage, no winners.
 
Kimmio said:
In terms of being an adult with a disability herself, dealing with how draconian the system can be, no. She has not. She has also not experienced the prejudices toward "full citizenship" first hand as someone - she is not a capable minded adult, with a disability herself, living with it daily. Her views are from an entirely different experience.

She is not, for example, one of the several who committed suicide in BC when their benefits where suddenly cut off our denied by red tape changes - or the friends and families who lost those people, or one of the advocates working when that happened. I came along after, but it was no less heartbreaking.
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Oh. Yes. Let's play competitive suffering until you win. Because that is what this is about for you.

Feel free to ban me for this.

F*ck off.

.
 
Kimmio, let's get over this, please. It's not all about you.

If I have the demonstrated capacity to make my will to end my life clear, I expect it to be followed. I am a human being with free will, and you should get out of my frigging way. I guarantee I have absolutely no interest in ending your life.
 
It's actually a bit hilarious. Kimmio is convinced that the boomers are what is holding humanity back from its full loving wonderfulness, yet doesn't think they should be given the right to exit with dignity. Which is it, please? You'd like us to retire, but then hang on in pain to make you feel good about your humanity?
 
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