History of the colloquial use of "jackboot"

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

No, it is not an automatic nazi reference...that didn't occur to me. Like Mendalla, I was using it to mean authoritarian. Rev Sdd took me aside and pointed out that it was the lowest thing I could call anyone - told me not to "weasel out" of doing so... then left off with "Have a good day." (which in my opinion only confirms my point - that's pretty darn jackbootish in my opinion, but, hey, what's that worth?)... and to be clear there was a reason - and it was so what happened in the past 24 hrs wouldn't happen - why I was not interested in naming names and getting more specific than I had been. But I was hassled about that, too. Damned if I did, damned if I didn't. Rev Sdd's judgment in interpreting intent of word usage may be a bit off...he may be inclined to overreact...and that's straight up. Not a veiled reference to anything or anyone. I mean that.

I want to clear up confusion around the use of the word jackboot, lest I be accused of calling somebody the lowest thing possible again (and I didn't even call anyone anything - first I deliberately avoided naming names, second - I called behaviour "jackbootish", after Mendalla claimed that "nobody was stomping around in jackboots playing power games." I somewhat disagreed - I said things were as "close to jackbootish around here as I'd ever like to see" - and I stand by that. Especially in light of today's happenings) :


http://www.historyhouse.co.uk/articles/jackboot.html

 

[Pinga]

Kimmio, if you wanted to clear up regency to jackboot your first paragraph would not be here

You are by nine individuals, making this personal.

I think you are better than this post.

 

[revjohn]

Also, his user name is revsdd the multiple Rev Sdd translates as additional disrespect. If that is what you were going for disregard this aspect of this post.

Communication requires a transmitter and a receiver. Intent does play a part. Confusion needs to be clarified and dealt with maturely.

You are claiming that your intent was not to call revsdd a nazi. I will take you at your word on that.

revsdd did receive the qualifier as you calling him a nazi. How he feels about that is his stuff to work out.

A measured response would have been to apologize for misunderstanding and clarify your intent. Instead you attempted to throw blame on others suggesting that you would not have used the term had they not used it first.

Clearly this issue resonates with you deeply on some level and there appears to be a great deal of emotional conflict in you wanting to claim folk are authoritarian without wanting to be perceived as claiming they are nazis. And rather than avoid a term which carries strong nazi connotations you insist that it is precisely the word you intend to use.

Whatever you are feeling may be interfering with whatever you are thinking.

One thing that is not helping is multiple conversations with multiple parties in multiple forums all on this one term.

You may serve your own interests best by considering what it is precisely you want to accomplish and what path is best to take to that goal.

The focus you appear to have settled on does not appear to be serving any. Least of all yourself.

I have been on the receiving end of you allowing your emotion to dictate what you will say without any concern for consequences so I offer this for your consideration. If you really intend to offend that is the way you are heading and continuing as you are will get you there. If you do not intend to offend and would rather have open communication about an issue this is not the path for that.

 

[revsdd]

Kimmio, I sent you a private message in a personal capacity (because I didn't want to make this a public dispute with you) suggesting that if you want to level an insult or accusation at me, to at least name me, given that I think most people would have known you meant me. I hardly consider that authoritarian. But I'm the one who over-reacts? I have to say that coming from you that actually makes me chuckle a little bit. OK fine. Whatever.

I fully accept that your use of the word "jackboot" was not intended on your part to be a reference to "nazism."

However, my interpretation of it reflects the colloquial usage of the word. As in:

Jackboot: A common epithet, used to conflate someone with Nazism.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Urban dictionary doesn't count. Urban dictionary allows sexist, racist and ableist - and otherwise offensive and poorly defined - content from its user generated definitions.

 

[Carolla]

Not quite sure what you're aiming for in continuing to argue about this Kimmio. Seems not to be helpful in you finding yourself in a more settled place with this incident.

 

[Northwind]

Kimmio I admire your passion for the underdog and passion for social justice. I am concerned about how you are responding lately. I hope that you can sort out whatever is driving this, and in particular can resolve your concerns about WC2.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Also, his user name is revsdd the multiple Rev Sdd translates as additional disrespect. If that is what you were going for disregard this aspect of this post.

Communication requires a transmitter and a receiver. Intent does play a part. Confusion needs to be clarified and dealt with maturely.

You are claiming that your intent was not to call revsdd a nazi. I will take you at your word on that.

revsdd did receive the qualifier as you calling him a nazi. How he feels about that is his stuff to work out.

A measured response would have been to apologize for misunderstanding and clarify your intent. Instead you attempted to throw blame on others suggesting that you would not have used the term had they not used it first.

Clearly this issue resonates with you deeply on some level and there appears to be a great deal of emotional conflict in you wanting to claim folk are authoritarian without wanting to be perceived as claiming they are nazis. And rather than avoid a term which carries strong nazi connotations you insist that it is precisely the word you intend to use.

Whatever you are feeling may be interfering with whatever you are thinking.

One thing that is not helping is multiple conversations with multiple parties in multiple forums all on this one term.

You may serve your own interests best by considering what it is precisely you want to accomplish and what path is best to take to that goal.

The focus you appear to have settled on does not appear to be serving any. Least of all yourself.

I have been on the receiving end of you allowing your emotion to dictate what you will say without any concern for consequences so I offer this for your consideration. If you really intend to offend that is the way you are heading and continuing as you are will get you there. If you do not intend to offend and would rather have open communication about an issue this is not the path for that.

Rev Sdd is because this is what otherwise happens on my iPad. Autocorrect was choosing something more disrespectful in that it looked nothing like revsdd's name. I put a space and a capital S and that seemed to alleviate my iPad's annoying issue with revsdd' username. Today, on my phone, I don't seem to be having the same problem. You're splitting hairs to find fault with me.

I believe that revsdd was acting like a bully yesterday - trying to do it by the back-channel. I think he has poor judgment about word usage for a mod. I think this council will team up if one of its own is criticized. Even if they are in the wrong. For example - Mendalla was being a bully to me in private conversation yesterday by bringing up communist China as a way to shut it down - as if only the worst examples in history qualify as authoritarian behaviour. What a cop out. A few of you do have a control freak problem. At least, on here, in these roles.

And yeah - I did want to clear up the jackboot issue. I may look worse to you for doing so. I don't really care. I'm not impressed with the way a few of you respond to me either.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Kimmio I admire your passion for the underdog and passion for social justice. I am concerned about how you are responding lately. I hope that you can sort out whatever is driving this, and in particular can resolve your concerns about WC2.

I am, northwind. These things need to be said. What would you do if you were taken into into a corner by a "mod not being a mod"- and told you called him one of the lowest names possible, related to nazis (when I was simply saying that I disagreed with Mendalla about power games being played here) that you were weaselling out of owning it...and "Have a nice day"?! I responded. Damn right I did. But I got no advocacy. First I got nitpicking about emailing to the wrong, highly important admin email account - then after being asked to use his personal account I got shut down there - I don't know if the conversation actually got to the whole council like I asked - I wanted a copy of my interaction with revsdd sent to them all, for the record. Anyway...it's been a crappy week around here. There is no real recourse if you take issue with a mod or council decision or behaviour. They're all for one, one for all - and complaints are annoyances.

 

[revjohn]

Statement of agreed upon facts so far:

Kimmio did not intend to fix the lable of Nazi to anyone.
revsdd accepts that Kimmio did not intend to fix the lable of Nazi to him.

Which is great. That is half of the communication problem vis-a-vis the "jackbootish" issue.

Statement of facts not yet agreed upon so far:

revsdd has a conscious link between Jackboot and Nazi. He likely cannot hear the one and not associate it with the other.

He is not alone in that link.

Word Origin and History for jackbootExpand
n.
also jack-boot, 1680s, type of large, strong cavalry boot of 17c.-18c., latera type worn by German military and para-military units in the Nazi period.From jack (n.), though the exact sense here is unclear + boot (n.1).Figurative of military oppression since 1768. Related: Jackbooted.

Where do we want to go from here? Because really I don't know how telling somebody that you think they are authoritarian but not in a Nazi way communicates anything positive.

If the issue is "I want to call you an authoritarian without anyone thinking I am calling you a Nazi" jackboot is probably a word that needs to be avoided. Unless we can identify an authoritarian regime that did not, as a matter of fact, wear jackboots.

If the issue is "I think the Moderators are being too authoritarian" then jackboot is probably a word that should be avoided.

I only bring it up because the longer this continues the less certain I am of what the actual driving issue is and if we aren't going to address it at all it must not be that important to begin with.

That's my two cents, since nobody deals with pennies anymore I could be persuaded to chip in three more cents to get and even penny.

 

[revsdd]

Urban dictionary doesn't count. Urban dictionary allows sexist, racist and ableist - and otherwise offensive and poorly defined - content from its user generated definitions.

It doesn't count? Since when? It allows those things specifically because it's a collection of commonly used phrases.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Since it allows exactly the type of offensive definitions that would be banned here, big time. It's not credible.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Statement of agreed upon facts so far:

Kimmio did not intend to fix the lable of Nazi to anyone.
revsdd accepts that Kimmio did not intend to fix the lable of Nazi to him.

Which is great. That is half of the communication problem vis-a-vis the "jackbootish" issue.

Statement of facts not yet agreed upon so far:

revsdd has a conscious link between Jackboot and Nazi. He likely cannot hear the one and not associate it with the other.

He is not alone in that link.



Where do we want to go from here? Because really I don't know how telling somebody that you think they are authoritarian but not in a Nazi way communicates anything positive.

If the issue is "I want to call you an authoritarian without anyone thinking I am calling you a Nazi" jackboot is probably a word that needs to be avoided. Unless we can identify an authoritarian regime that did not, as a matter of fact, wear jackboots.

If the issue is "I think the Moderators are being too authoritarian" then jackboot is probably a word that should be avoided.

I only bring it up because the longer this continues the less certain I am of what the actual driving issue is and if we aren't going to address it at all it must not be that important to begin with.

That's my two cents, since nobody deals with pennies anymore I could be persuaded to chip in three more cents to get and even penny.

I probably wouldn't have thought of using the damn word jackboot if Mendalla hadn't brought it up in the same thread! As for playing power games - YES! - and what you are doing is what I would call a power game.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Kimmio, if you wanted to clear up regency to jackboot your first paragraph would not be here

You are by nine individuals, making this personal.

I think you are better than this post.

Says the woman pressing for examples the other day.

 

[revsdd]

Since it allows exactly the type of offensive definitions that would be banned here, big time. It's not credible.

**SIGH**

Kimmio, The Urban Dictionary exists for the very purpose of telling people how words are used in practice - even the offensive ways in which they're used. If you want to live in a dream world in which no one uses "sexist" or "racist" or "able-ist" words that's your choice. I would, however, suggest that you bring yourself up to date on how words are used in practice so that you avoid making inadvertent insults yourself.

Yes, "jackboot" refers metaphorically to authoritarian tendencies. Do you know why? Because it came to be associated with nazism. When Churchill during World War II referred to "jackboots" he wasn't talking about the Swiss.

I have already said that I accept that you were not aware that "jackboot" was used as a metaphor for "Nazi" and thought it meant only "authoritarian" or "fascist." I have no more to say on the subject. Time to move on. Just let it go.

 

[revjohn]

I probably wouldn't have thought of using the damn word jackboot if Mendalla hadn't brought it up in the same thread!

Your choice. Own it. You continue to want to use it. Own that.

As for playing power games - YES! - and what you are doing is what I would call a power game.

What am I doing Kimmio?

Am I trying to de-escalate a situation? Am I trying to ramp conflict up. What is my play?

Am I trying to focus attention on an identifiable goal? Am I increasingly stirring up murk? What is my play?

Apart from that the only power I have to play games with is the reputation I have built though my participation here. I didn't spend years investing in social capital just so I could throw it away on a pissing contest.

You don't care what I think. Great.

I can live with that.

You want to continue to rant. More power to you.

I'm not going to put you on ignore. I'm not responding until you make it clear what you want and are prepared to own your role in making that happen.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

**SIGH**

Kimmio, The Urban Dictionary exists for the very purpose of telling people how words are used in practice - even the offensive ways in which they're used. If you want to live in a dream world in which no one uses "sexist" or "racist" or "able-ist" words that's your choice. I would, however, suggest that you bring yourself up to date on how words are used in practice so that you avoid making inadvertent insults yourself.

Yes, "jackboot" refers metaphorically to authoritarian tendencies. Do you know why? Because it came to be associated with nazism. When Churchill during World War II referred to "jackboots" he wasn't talking about the Swiss.

I have already said that I accept that you were not aware that "jackboot" was used as a metaphor for "Nazi" and thought it meant only "authoritarian" or "fascist." I have no more to say on the subject. Time to move on. Just let it go.

You're a hypocrite. A power tripping hypocrite.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Your choice. Own it. You continue to want to use it. Own that.



What am I doing Kimmio?

Am I trying to de-escalate a situation? Am I trying to ramp conflict up. What is my play?

Am I trying to focus attention on an identifiable goal? Am I increasingly stirring up murk? What is my play?

Apart from that the only power I have to play games with is the reputation I have built though my participation here. I didn't spend years investing in social capital just so I could throw it away on a pissing contest.

You don't care what I think. Great.

I can live with that.

You want to continue to rant. More power to you.

I'm not going to put you on ignore. I'm not responding until you make it clear what you want and are prepared to own your role in making that happen.

Your tedious hair splitting is a power game.

 

[ChemGal]

I am, northwind. These things need to be said. What would you do if you were taken into into a corner by a "mod not being a mod"- and told you called him one of the lowest names possible, related to nazis (when I was simply saying that I disagreed with Mendalla about power games being played here) that you were weaselling out of owning it...and "Have a nice day"?! I responded. Damn right I did. But I got no advocacy. First I got nitpicking about emailing to the wrong, highly important admin email account - then after being asked to use his personal account I got shut down there - I don't know if the conversation actually got to the whole council like I asked - I wanted a copy of my interaction with revsdd sent to them all, for the record. Anyway...it's been a crappy week around here. There is no real recourse if you take issue with a mod or council decision or behaviour. They're all for one, one for all - and complaints are annoyances.

We were all posted the entire conversation.

We're not all of one, one for all. We have disagreements in our discussions. Airing them publicly isn't useful IMO.

As for the closing of thread, I have not seen any disagreement on that. If I were the one to step in at the point I don't know if I would have done the same. It doesn't make it a bad thing though, I feel like revsdd has done some excellent modding lately.

 

[paradox3]

We were all posted the entire conversation.

We're not all of one, one for all. We have disagreements in our discussions. Airing them publicly isn't useful IMO.

As for the closing of thread, I have not seen any disagreement on that. If I were the one to step in at the point I don't know if I would have done the same. It doesn't make it a bad thing though, I feel like revsdd has done some excellent modding lately.

Wondering if this post should be in purple?