The growing mess that is Iraq

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Eight facts everyone should know about the rise of ISIS and the new war in Iraq

also ... Perhaps the US (and UK) could try some of these instead of always murdering more people:

1. Apologize for brutalizing the leader of ISIS in Abu Ghraib and to every other prisoner victimized under US occupation.

2. Apologize for destroying the nation of Iraq and to every family there.

3. Begin making restitution by delivering aid (not "military aid" but actual aid, food, medicine) to the entire nation of Iraq.

4. Apologize for role in war in Syria.

5. Begin making restitution by delivering actual aid to Syria.

6. Announce a commitment not to provide weapons to Iraq or Syria or Israel or Jordan or Egypt or Bahrain or any other nation anywhere on earth and to begin withdrawing US troops from foreign territories and seas, including Afghanistan. (The US Coast Guard in the Persian Gulf has clearly forgotten where the coast of the US is!)

7. Announce a commitment to invest heavily in solar, wind, and other green energy and to provide the same to democratic representative governments.

8. Begin providing Iran with free wind and solar technologies -- at much lower cost of course than what it is costing the US and Israel to threaten Iran over a nonexistent nuclear weapons program.

9. End economic sanctions.

10. Send diplomats to Baghdad and Damascus to negotiate aid and to encourage serious reforms.

11. Send journalists, aid workers, peaceworkers, human shields, and negotiators into crisis zones, understanding that this means risking lives, but fewer lives than further militarization risks.

12. Empower people with agricultural assistance, education, cameras, and internet access.

13. Launch a communications campaign in the United States to replace military recruitment campaigns, focused on building sympathy and desire to serve as critical aid workers, persuading doctors and engineers to volunteer their time to travel to and visit these areas of crisis.

14. Work through the United Nations on all of this.

15. Sign the United States on to the International Criminal Court and voluntarily propose the prosecution of top US officials of this and the preceding regimes for their crimes.

David Swanson new book is War No More: The Case for Abolition.
 
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BetteTheRed said:
This particular group are "one of the world's biggest problems" largely in the eyes of western media.
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Yes, I imagine so. Especially to the families of the journalists they brutally murdered. I think the world has plenty of problems. My point is that this one just kind of came to the forefront recently.We'd never heard of ISIS until recently.Why is that? They may not be the world's biggest problem yet, but they certainly are a growing one. As for undefinitive's suggestions, I think this group is fanatical and it is too late for that. This is a very bad seed, and was growing under the radar (ours at least) and now it is abig problem. Those are the sorts of things that prevent the rise of extremism,but once it is already risen and operating in full force, and well financed...realistically (as opposed to idealistically...I think we all have the same ideal...wars should just stop) how do you stop a group intent on killing people who do not hold their religious beliefs?...and one that is even recruiting non Muslims from Western nations, disaffected young men, who were not the people originally affected by any war! Going over there for what?...and killing other Muslims even...those who are more moderate than them? I just read an article yesterday in huffpost about a young man in Syria...a teacher....who supports ISIS now because they are bringing law and order back to town...and he thinks it's better than the chaos that has been going on there for years...but he is not thinking beyond Syria...beyond his own interests.

I am just asking realistically how do you negotiate with fanatical brainwashed people intent on killing...who do not have the same peaceful human needs and aims as most people do...because it has been fanatasized out of them? If love and peace is not an interest of theirs then it is not a starting point for negotiation. That's the scary reality and I don't think, considering the beheadings and everything else...really gruesome...I don't think that's an exaggeration. It has really been happening and there is no negotiating brutal aims like that. It would be nice if we could say "we all want peace let's start there"...but if they don't? They don't seem to want peace. They want control. Then what? What do the innocent people there do? and do we just leave them to fend for themselves in the name of peace (ours, so we don't have to think about it) or does the rest of the world have a human duty to protect them?
 
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The fact that they have recruited originally non-Muslim young men from Western countries is a good indication that this group is a powerful problem and not just an over-reaction by Western media.

Whatever happened that instigated this group, ISIS into being...it is no excuse for what they have been doing. If it is revenge for something...that is a different motive than necessarily protecting innocent people from them. If there was away to deal with this group non-militarily I think the US would be doing it because the public is war weary...but they turned their backs on Syria... largely ignored the problems there for years... and it has been nothing but mayhem there...and that's where this extremist problem that has spilled into Iraq came about. Now what are they really supposed to do?
 
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UnDefinitive said:
Eight facts everyone should know about the rise of ISIS and the new war in Iraq

also ... Perhaps the US (and UK) could try some of these instead of always murdering more people:

1. Apologize for brutalizing the leader of ISIS in Abu Ghraib and to every other prisoner victimized under US occupation.

2. Apologize for destroying the nation of Iraq and to every family there.

3. Begin making restitution by delivering aid (not "military aid" but actual aid, food, medicine) to the entire nation of Iraq.

4. Apologize for role in war in Syria.

5. Begin making restitution by delivering actual aid to Syria.

6. Announce a commitment not to provide weapons to Iraq or Syria or Israel or Jordan or Egypt or Bahrain or any other nation anywhere on earth and to begin withdrawing US troops from foreign territories and seas, including Afghanistan. (The US Coast Guard in the Persian Gulf has clearly forgotten where the coast of the US is!)

7. Announce a commitment to invest heavily in solar, wind, and other green energy and to provide the same to democratic representative governments.

8. Begin providing Iran with free wind and solar technologies -- at much lower cost of course than what it is costing the US and Israel to threaten Iran over a nonexistent nuclear weapons program.

9. End economic sanctions.

10. Send diplomats to Baghdad and Damascus to negotiate aid and to encourage serious reforms.

11. Send journalists, aid workers, peaceworkers, human shields, and negotiators into crisis zones, understanding that this means risking lives, but fewer lives than further militarization risks.

12. Empower people with agricultural assistance, education, cameras, and internet access.

13. Launch a communications campaign in the United States to replace military recruitment campaigns, focused on building sympathy and desire to serve as critical aid workers, persuading doctors and engineers to volunteer their time to travel to and visit these areas of crisis.


14. Work through the United Nations on all of this.

15. Sign the United States on to the International Criminal Court and voluntarily propose the prosecution of top US officials of this and the preceding regimes for their crimes.

David Swanson new book is War No More: The Case for Abolition.
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Some are good ideas but they won't stem the tide of ISIS that has already taken hold in some places. What do you do about armed men threatening innocent people in real time...forcing women to wear niquabs...killing the non-compliant...not academic imaginings and ponderings, but real brutality? Other than protect the innocent people with military intervention, what do you do? I wish there was a good non-military idea but I have not heard one yet. You can't exactly walk into those ISIS controlled towns and say, "Uh, pardon me, I am very sorry to bother you. It seems we have caused a bit of a mess...I apologize...but would you kindly move out of the way and let these locals live in peace as they wish...please? Cup of tea?"
 
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UnDefinitive said:
Eight facts everyone should know about the rise of ISIS and the new war in Iraq

also ... Perhaps the US (and UK) could try some of these instead of always murdering more people:

1. Apologize for brutalizing the leader of ISIS in Abu Ghraib and to every other prisoner victimized under US occupation.

2. Apologize for destroying the nation of Iraq and to every family there.

3. Begin making restitution by delivering aid (not "military aid" but actual aid, food, medicine) to the entire nation of Iraq.

4. Apologize for role in war in Syria.

5. Begin making restitution by delivering actual aid to Syria.

6. Announce a commitment not to provide weapons to Iraq or Syria or Israel or Jordan or Egypt or Bahrain or any other nation anywhere on earth and to begin withdrawing US troops from foreign territories and seas, including Afghanistan. (The US Coast Guard in the Persian Gulf has clearly forgotten where the coast of the US is!)

7. Announce a commitment to invest heavily in solar, wind, and other green energy and to provide the same to democratic representative governments.

8. Begin providing Iran with free wind and solar technologies -- at much lower cost of course than what it is costing the US and Israel to threaten Iran over a nonexistent nuclear weapons program.

9. End economic sanctions.

10. Send diplomats to Baghdad and Damascus to negotiate aid and to encourage serious reforms.

11. Send journalists, aid workers, peaceworkers, human shields, and negotiators into crisis zones, understanding that this means risking lives, but fewer lives than further militarization risks.

12. Empower people with agricultural assistance, education, cameras, and internet access.

13. Launch a communications campaign in the United States to replace military recruitment campaigns, focused on building sympathy and desire to serve as critical aid workers, persuading doctors and engineers to volunteer their time to travel to and visit these areas of crisis.

14. Work through the United Nations on all of this.

15. Sign the United States on to the International Criminal Court and voluntarily propose the prosecution of top US officials of this and the preceding regimes for their crimes.

David Swanson new book is War No More: The Case for Abolition.
Click to expand...

I read the article. Interesting but also biased. Whatever caused the rise of Isis they are a dangerous problem now. Have you seen them in photos- all clad in black storming towns? Intimidating characters - and nobody, not a single one of us, would want to live in a place under their brutal rule...makes Canada look like Disneyland. Seriously. We only think we have problems, but by comparison, we don't. And the innocent people, the Yezidis and others, Christians, moderate Muslims, everyday people living in the region do not deserve to be threatened by them. So...how can they be stopped now...not in hindsight, but now?
 
Kimmio "... killing the non-compliant...not academic imaginings and ponderings, but real brutality? Other than protect the innocent people with military intervention, what do you do?

So you will vote yes to martial law when it comes to your town?

Kimmio "I wish there was a good non-military idea but I have not heard one yet."

You were just presented with 15 better ideas from a person who devotes his life to studying how to end wars ... you just dismiss everything and suggest immediate military intervention ?? ... in other posts where it might be suggested that military has a role to play you insist that people need to drop their weapons immediately and never pick them up again???

What do you think the answer is Kimmio ? Is there different answers for different wars?
 
@Kimmio ...here is one of your posts from Israel Heating up again ... "I understand there's long history and politics and it's complicated (and blah blah blah). I look at those kids...and no it's not complicated. It's easy. And it's the same for all wars. Lay down weapons. Refuse to use them to solve anything and conclude that war is never a solution. That's really truly what it'll take. I'm very disappointed in the 'grown ups' of the world - for the future messes we refuse to stop and clean up that today's kids will get caught in. We're (overall) the ones complicating everything and not realizing it's simple. We suck."
 
All I am saying undef is that it doesn't help people being threatened right now, as we type. These are long term solutions that take weeks months and years to implement so what do they do about it today? That's like not calling 9-1-1 when you're being attacked (which I am sure you would and you would not consider that "martial law', but appropriate protection) because the attacker will run away after they have attacked you and once he's caused immediate harm, then we can work on teaching non-violence in society. That's fine but what about protection now? You said upthread that the Yezidis need to be protected and that is what I am saying too. It's a quandry because there is an immediate threat to people on the ground now.

And yes...I suppose...in light of this... there are different answers for different wars because governments can sit at the table and negotiate..they are, or at least can be, more rational than rebel militias who do not answer to, or are not lead by a geopolitical power. For example, I believe Obama and Putin can get it together and find peaceful solutions, and should, like grown ups, because ultimately they know it is in their mutual interest, they are leaders of countries with more to think about than religious ideology...I am not sure ISIS believes that to be the case. I am not sure Obama's solution is the right one either...I am not sure of anything.
 
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Another thing is...military intervention in Iraq is not retributive, it's protective. It is still going to be violent and that really is regrettable but, we cannot turn the clock back to before mistakes were made, and in the short term to save innocent lives I don't think the above solutions do anything for right now. I just hope whatever happens is minimal and doesn't create bigger problems down the road...like, I am not sure that arming locals is a good idea. It's more of the same that caused so many messes already. Quick rescue ops are a better idea.
 
Kimmio ... I don't think it was me that said this ... "You said upthread that the Yezidis need to be protected" I don't even know who the Yezidis are in this battle ...

and as far as this "Another thing is...military intervention in Iraq is not retributive, it's protective. It is still going to be violent and that is regrettable but in the short term to save innocent lives I don't think the above solutions do anything for right now."


I still favor David Swanson on the following suggestions to Obama:
1. Apologize for brutalizing the leader of ISIS in Abu Ghraib and to every other prisoner victimized under US occupation.

2. Apologize for destroying the nation of Iraq and to every family there.

3. Begin making restitution by delivering aid (not "military aid" but actual aid, food, medicine) to the entire nation of Iraq.

4. Apologize for role in war in Syria.

5. Begin making restitution by delivering actual aid to Syria.

6. Announce a commitment not to provide weapons to Iraq or Syria or Israel or Jordan or Egypt or Bahrain or any other nation anywhere on earth and to begin withdrawing US troops from foreign territories and seas, including Afghanistan. (The US Coast Guard in the Persian Gulf has clearly forgotten where the coast of the US is!)

7. Announce a commitment to invest heavily in solar, wind, and other green energy and to provide the same to democratic representative governments.

8. Begin providing Iran with free wind and solar technologies -- at much lower cost of course than what it is costing the US and Israel to threaten Iran over a nonexistent nuclear weapons program.

9. End economic sanctions.

10. Send diplomats to Baghdad and Damascus to negotiate aid and to encourage serious reforms.

11. Send journalists, aid workers, peaceworkers, human shields, and negotiators into crisis zones, understanding that this means risking lives, but fewer lives than further militarization risks.

12. Empower people with agricultural assistance, education, cameras, and internet access.

13. Launch a communications campaign in the United States to replace military recruitment campaigns, focused on building sympathy and desire to serve as critical aid workers, persuading doctors and engineers to volunteer their time to travel to and visit these areas of crisis.

14. Work through the United Nations on all of this.

Please do not suggest to me that poor Obama is just an innocent bystander in all of this as you have before ... I agree to the degree that he is following the orders of the corporate globalists that are pulling the strings ... If Obama wants to do anything for the world ... what he should do is come clean and fess up to his knowledge of the corruption ... he could be the biggest and most infamous whistle blower in all of history with what he knows ...or he could at least die trying ... 15. Sign the United States on to the International Criminal Court and voluntarily propose the prosecution of top US officials of this and the preceding regimes for their crimes.
 
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The Yezidis are the people who fled to the mountains to escape Isis brutality. The first I read of Isis. You did mention them early in this thread. I don't want to see martial law anywhere nor do I want to see these guys cause the destruction they are causing or recruit disaffected young men . Again your solutions do not speak to right in the moment problems. I apologize but I don't have any better ideas either.
 
Another thing undef...human shields? Are you and David Swanson volunteering? I doubt it...it is easy to be an armchair critic but I wouldn't go...and aid workers, medical or otherwise are not going to go into conflict zones unprotected, in places where there is strong immediate risk to their lives. It is against the UN rules for one thing...groups like Red Cross and Medicine Sans Frontiers, UN recognized, won't put aid workers lives at immediate risk like that...and that is because if they do they are as good as dead and can't help anyone...they can't deliver medical or food aid or whatever if they are threatened. So, that is not a viable idea. Noone would do it, without any type of military protection nearby, it would not be approved. It may be a sad reality that there is no really good solution to this, short of a miracle, because the good solution time passed a few years ago, and now we just have to hope for the least harmful solution. I hate to think that but maybe that's just the reality.

...and also...what about the little problem of extremist religious ideology...that is aside from geopolitical problems or retribution for any past conflicts? What about the fact that they want anyone who is not abiding by their ideology to die? How do the above solutions solve that issue for those who are already taken by this violent ideology? And why are western boys with anglo saxon names (or anyone who has no original connection with the real problems over there) getting recruited? Isn't that a little scary?
 
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UnDefinitive said:
Iraq exposes the west’s hypocrisy in the Middle East
It’s right to take military action to protect Yazidi people.
But the west’s record on who gets saved and who doesn’t is shameful ...

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/11/iraq-west-hypocrisy-middle-east-yazidi-people&ei=L6PuU7aPMIOBygS4l4CQBg&usg=AFQjCNHy38tE4zhQLdwNkN5uFh78KxI6Kw&bvm=bv.73231344,d.aWw
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@UnDefinitive this is where you mentioned the Yazidi people. I bolded your type. and THIS is savage and unacceptable and it needs to be stopped:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/08/isis-attacks-on-women_n_5775106.html?cps=gravity
 
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Kimmio said:
"follow our extreme ideology or die" is not a reasonable position.
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If confronted with that choice, I would convert. If saying "Allah is Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet" three times would get me out of being killed, then I would simply say it. Those who don't, and would rather be killed than convert, are as unreasonable as those who want to convert them. No one can force anyone to think a particular way. Our thoughts are always free, no matter which religion we overtly espouse.

I am, of course, not trying to excuse the inexcusable behaviour of ISIS.
 
Just as when I was young ... I simply said "Uncle" as soon as one of my bigger brothers walked into the room ... why wait to have my arm twisted behind my back ... still, even tho my mother told me that I was never allowed to defend myself by kicking them in the balls ... I took that chance when I got it!
 
Hermann said:
If confronted with that choice, I would convert. If saying "Allah is Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet" three times would get me out of being killed, then I would simply say it. Those who don't, and would rather be killed than convert, are as unreasonable as those who want to convert them. No one can force anyone to think a particular way. Our thoughts are always free, no matter which religion we overtly espouse.

I am, of course, not trying to excuse the inexcusable behaviour of ISIS.
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I don't think it's that simple Hermann, especially for women who are being, not only forced to be fully covered, but forcibly married off and raped by these guys. Are their thoughts really free? I might rather die if it were me - or have someone intervene and save me! I think any woman here faced by the same thing would feel similarly so I do not know why I am being made out as a bad guy on here. ISIS is brutal and there's no excusing their behaviour.
 
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