The growing mess that is Iraq

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Certainly lowers the level of the discourse.

Kimmio, it's only some sort of arbitrary luck, or lack thereof, that you're female in this meat-body. If you'd been born a neighbour (let's say a male) of one of "these people", it is hubristic in the extreme to suggest that you'd be better.

Please don't use the term meat body with me. It's disgusting, not cute. People are not 'meat'.

You know...you're really offending me, Bette. Isis are behaving like violent, rabid, animals and you are picking on me. It's not hubristic 'in the extreme' to suggest I would not join them if i were born male, there. Because, no...not every male neighbour there supports Isis...far from it. They are a well financed extremist minority. People live in fear of them. I hope I would, if I were there and male, know better. What do you have to say about the young western men who never had anything to do before with what's going on there - and men from random other places - being recruited?

 

[BetteTheRed]

It's an Indian concept Kimmio. I had no idea it would offend you or anyone. The ana maya kosha is the "sheath covering made of meat that houses the soul".

I do not try to offend, Kimmio, but to make sure that you are sure of the ideas that you espouse by taking them to a logical conclusion. You are making these humans out to be non-human, and given that I know that we are all one, I think that is wrong, and I think that it is an idea that allows us to "other" people and is the root of all of our violence. In all circumstances, we must have compassion BOTH for the victim AND for the oppressor. It is easy to have compassion for a victim, not so easy to have it for the 'enemy'. But Jesus calls us to it. And I personally think he was serious.

 

[Hermann]

The Jihadist movement to fight for Islamic States everywhere is a world-wide phenomenon. In Germany they call themselves "Saladists" and have, over the past three years, recruited several hundred Jihadists and funneled them through Turkey into Syria to fight for the Islamic State there. Disenchanted young men as young as 13 (!) were their targets. Child soldiers, really. They get thoroughly indoctrinated until they firmly believe that they are warriors of God, doing God's work. "Victory or death!" becomes their slogan.

This has been tolerated, so far, in the name of religious freedom, but Germany has just passed a law prohibiting the recruitment of Jihadists and the financial support of any Jihadist organizations. This is difficult because Jihadists arise largely from fundamentalist or even mainstream Islamic congregations who overtly distance themselves from terrorism but don't want to betray their violent brothers. After all, the traditional way of spreading Islam in the 7th century was by fire and sword, and many Muslims openly or secretly condone such violent conversion in order to cleanse the world of what they perceive as evil. I think it is necessary for the Muslim mainstream to clearly distance itself from violent fundamentalism

Violent conversion is a grave misuse of religion, but has been condoned and practiced even by Christians not so long ago. And it seems as difficult for liberal Christians as it is for liberal Muslims to distance themselves from fundamentalism and its excesses.


Those who believe in absurdities are prone to commit atrocities.

-Bruce Cockburn

 

[BetteTheRed]

... And it seems as difficult for liberal Christians as it is for liberal Muslims to distance themselves from fundamentalism and its excesses.


Those who believe in absurdities are prone to commit atrocities.

-Bruce Cockburn

Oh, I dunno. I think it's Irshad Manjii (the queer liberal Muslim) who first advocated that a great non-violent response would be for women of the world to unite to parade around naked anywhere that there might be a jihadist in order to automatically deprive them of their 70 virgins. ;-)

 

[Ritafee]

@Kimmio ... I was only trying to point out that there is no humanitarian reasoning behind the war machine ... I was just disappointed that you were swayed from your natural intent to oppose war for any reason ... there is tyranny everywhere ... in our society it is often masked as for the common good of the public but in reality more often than not serves the elite and actually disempowers the common people. The point I was trying to make is that the media has a way of getting the people to call for war when in reality ... war has never served humanity well ... I propose a changing of the conditions around people as opposed to funding & arming neighboring tribes to fight against each other for the benefit of the intervening super powers. That's all.

 

[Delightful Life]

Oh, I dunno. I think it's Irshad Manjii (the queer liberal Muslim) who first advocated that a great non-violent response would be for women of the world to unite to parade around naked anywhere that there might be a jihadist in order to automatically deprive them of their 70 virgins. ;-)

Irshad Manjii, the Getta Vosper of Islam

 

[Delightful Life]

Violent conversion is a grave misuse of religion, but has been condoned and practiced even by Christians not so long ago. And it seems as difficult for liberal Christians as it is for liberal Muslims to distance themselves from fundamentalism and its excesses.

Its too bad that the horrific empire that was cut apart and stymied not that long ago has woken up again, doing what they do out of their love for the world

I fear for how fighting this Cthulian monster will change the world, how it will engage human's ancient programs

"There is no shelter here
The front lines are everywhere"
--Rage Against the Machine's "No Shelter"

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I hate war and would much prefer Isis to stop but if they are bent on 7th Century precepts of Islam (and defending ancient precepts with modern weapons) then there is no using modern rationale on them to turn them to civility- they know it exists and it is what they hate - anyone with post 7th Century social ideals - so, if they can't be negotiated with I don't know how people are supposed to defend themselves against them unarmed. I hate the whole thing - I hate all this war, but what else can happen in the short term short of a miracle? Honestly? Loving your enemy does not mean letting them indiscriminately kill your neighbours.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I hate war and would much prefer Isis to stop but if they are bent on 7th Century precepts of Islam (and defending ancient precepts with modern weapons) then there is no using modern rationale on them to turn them to civility- they know it exists and it is what they hate - anyone with post 7th Century social ideals - so, if they can't be negotiated with I don't know how people are supposed to defend themselves against them unarmed. I hate the whole thing - I hate all this war, I don't like this ugly age we live in, but what else can happen in the short term short of a miracle? Honestly? Loving your enemy does not mean letting them indiscriminately kill your neighbours. And these guys are willing (even eager) to die for their cause, that is how dangerous they are - their neighbours are not willing to die for Isis' cause on the other hand, and no one in the civilized world is either.

I hate the idea of moving toward martial law, too, but I hate the idea of Isis spreading through the world even more.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Oh, I dunno. I think it's Irshad Manjii (the queer liberal Muslim) who first advocated that a great non-violent response would be for women of the world to unite to parade around naked anywhere that there might be a jihadist in order to automatically deprive them of their 70 virgins. ;-)

Yeah, and you and a handful of others have heard of her (him?) - meanwhile everyone has heard of the extremists. Point being, her movement is not exactly spreading with speed and enthusiasm. And Isis would kill her, no question. She would be an infidel to them as much as a Christian would be. Really, I think most main stream Muslims nowdays are neither extreme nor progressive - but, as Hermann says, they need to take a stand away from the jihadists. The world needs help from Muslims of good conscience.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

More interesting but scarey news:

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/5814128

Some of the moderate rebels (the ones with US backing) are siding with isis to defeat Assad. So Obama's idea ain't gonna work - well, arming rebels is what causes so many problems anyway. And these same moderate rebels are fed up with the west leaving them to their own defenses against Assad in the first place - so I really don't know of any solution to all this mess. Nobody seems to.

 

[Hermann]

More interesting but scarey news:

http://m.huffpost.com/ca/entry/5814128

Some of the moderate rebels (the ones with US backing) are siding with isis to defeat Assad. So Obama's idea ain't gonna work - well, arming rebels is what causes so many problems anyway. And these same moderate rebels are fed up with the west leaving them to their own defenses against Assad in the first place - so I really don't know of any solution to all this mess. Nobody seems to.

Yes, nobody seems to know how to end this growing mess, which seems to get worse by the day.

Some resent interference by the West, others resent non-interference. Muslim extremists typically over-emphasize the injustices committed against them and Islam, and conveniently forget the injustices committed by them. The West typically over-emphasizes the horrors committed by the Muslim extremists, and conveniently forget the horrors committed in the attempts to eradicate them. There are now an estimated 30,000 extremely fanatical Jihadists fighting under the banner of ISIS, with the slogan "Victory or Death!" on their lips. Is the horror of bombing them all to bits and pieces better than the horrors they have committed so far?

The extremist say that "Islam" means "submission to God", and one who submits to God is a "Muslim." They interpret the Koran literally, and quote passages from the Koran in which God commands them to spread Islam by fire and sword. In their thinking, they submit to God, carry out God's will, and are good Muslims. They say, sure, Islam is a religion of peace, but only among the people of God, by which they mean fundamentalist Muslims who believe as they do. This, in their mind, gives them the god-given right and even the god-given duty to kill everyone who thinks differently -- unless they convert to their extreme brand of Islam. They regard themselves not as terrorists but as pious Muslims, obedient to God's will.

That the Koran originally contained passages which commanded tolerance toward other religions, and that these passages were later struck from the Koran as having been "inspired by Satan," (the so-called "Satanic Verses") is conveniently ignored by them, or else they believe that these passages have really been inspired by Satan, and therefore had to be struck from the Koran. They are extreme Islamic fundamentalists. Unfortunately, Islam still appears to be largely fundamentalist, albeit less extreme, and there is altogether too much sympathy in Islam for its extremists.

Before we judge Islamists too harshly, we should bear in mind that Christianity was still largely fundamentalist until not very long ago. Different societies are at different stages in their cultural evolution, each society evolves at its own pace, and Islamic society, for the most part, just happens to be still implicated in its medieval, authoritarian, and fundamentalist stage, from which Christian society only just emerged. They deserve our understanding and compassion, which, of course, does not mean we have to passively accept what they are doing. I, for one, would be greatly in favour opening the channels of communication. Maybe we should invite them to participate in wondercafe2?

Makes one want to rid the world of religion, eh? But the atrocities committed in the name of of other ideologies are as bad or worse than those committed in the name of religion. "Standing up for what one believes in" is still considered a virtue. We all would do well to closely examine what we believe.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Yes, Hermann, I agree with you...we have to examine what we believe...( does everyone believe that Jesus would leave people totally defenseless against a group like ISIS...that I do not know about...he was against starting wars, he called for putting down swords, but was he against defending innocents? he would tell people much like Isis to put their swords down...and that was before they had machine guns...and if they don't? Would he turn his back on their victims? I think not. He let himself be killed but would he stand by and let everyone else be killed? Would he? I do believe he would consider what ISIS are doing to be evil...in those days, demonic) and I never supported an all out war against anyone but, more, tactical, defensive rescue operations...to defend people against them, save people from them because they are dangerous, not retaliative measures. I do not think that their peaceful victims can save their own lives without military protection of some kind. I wish that were not the case...but it appears to be the case. It appears that an outstretched hand will not stop the ones bent on violence against anyone who is not one of them.

 

[Ritafee]

The atrocities committed in the name of 'money is powe'r ideology seems to me far worse than any other ideology ever construed by humans being.
I have closely examined my belief that we need to move towards a resource based sharing economy ... at the root of all evil is money.

 

[Hermann]

Yes, UnDeaf, "moneyism" appears to be the most destructive ideology invented by humans so far.

And yes, an economy that is based on sharing all of the Earth's resources, for the benefit of all of her beings, seems to be the most effective antidote to destructive moneyism.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

The atrocities committed in the name of 'money is powe'r ideology seems to me far worse than any other ideology ever construed by humans being.
I have closely examined my belief that we need to move towards a resource based sharing economy ... at the root of all evil is money.

It is up there, it's not great, I don't know if it is the worst. Beheading infidels in the name of Allah is pretty darn bad.

 

[Ritafee]

IRBIL, Iraq — Muhammed Jamal can understand why many want to join ISIS.

“You get paid the most, you have the most weapons, you are with the most powerful group,” said Jamal, who as a Sunni Iraqi would have little trouble joining up with the group. ISIS has openly welcomed Sunni Muslims into its self-declared “Islamic State,” stretching 12,000 square miles through Syria and Iraq. “I’m not a fighter, but if I was that is who I’d join.”

Jamal fled Mosul, Iraq’s second biggest city, when ISIS militants captured it in early June. “I left Mosul when ISIS came because I thought it would be bombings and war there and I wanted to protect my family,” said Jamal, 31, who is now sheltering with several other Sunni families near the Kurdish city of Irbil. “But now I do think about going back. I don’t agree with their position on religion, but if they have money and can give us jobs … that would be more than anyone else has given us in years.”

At nearly $400 a month, ISIS pays its fighters nearly double what other groups in the region pay — from the moderate Free Syrian Army, to militant group Hezbollah, to even the Iraqi army — according to intelligence groups.

ISIS has grown from being a small offshoot of al-Qaeda in Iraq into the wealthiest terror group in the world, with revenue streams that have grown and matured as the organization has expanded its reach. Once reliant on handouts from wealthy donors in the Gulf, it is now believed to be wholly self-sufficient, garnering millions by trading in crude oil, selling artifacts on the black market, and running racketeering and kidnapping schemes. It is believed to have built itself a total wealth of over $2 billion — far beyond what any terror group before it has managed to muster. Western intelligence agencies, once focused on donors and looted cash from Iraq banks, now believe that ISIS has created a model that will ensure that the group can remain self-sustaining billionaires. Its wealth, say experts, is almost entirely produced locally, and therefore not as vulnerable to outside influence or sanctions.

“They did not get like this by accident,” said Luay al-Khateeb, a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution’s Doha Center in Qatar and director of the Iraq Energy Institute. ISIS looked at other groups — al-Qaeda strategy of levying local taxes, Boko Haram in Nigeria’s use of local resources, and FARC in Colombia’s kidnapping of wealthy locals and foreigners — and then tried to perfect it.

“This is a process that began decades ago and has been honed to turn ISIS into a profitable enterprise,” al-Khateeb said.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

yeah, they are well financed and that is not good...it does not help matters.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I dedicate this song to Geofee and UnDefinitive:

Not much has changed in the world in 40 plus years, has it? except that we are more creatively brain drained on the whole - actually, the inventions for sale, and the problems have 'evolved' equally - and the world is screwed. And the hippies became yuppies and stopped caring very much, except about their own pocketbooks. They became the very thing they rebelled against with their parents - mainstream - but on steroids.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Artists were smarter - wiser - in the late 60s, early 70s, and before (and many of them sold out) - I think tech has artistically dummied people down - the ability to use the science to create sensory effects and titillating stimuli no, but to ask profound cultural and social questions about our futures, the future of all of humanity, yes, we've been dummied down. We've gotten stupid. We really have. I hope new generations have a chance. The people running the world in the last 3 - 5 decades have done some stupid s**t - and ignored the stupid s**t they should've been paying attention to. This comment belongs in a few threads. I'll leave it here.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/who/wontgetfooledagain.html