Where Do We Go From Here...?

[GeoFee]

"We need a balanced world, not one tilting to extremes." Mendalla

A balanced world is just what we do not have. The balance has been tipped in favour or private interest and against the common good. The imbalance has reached critical proportions. By the law of nature an equal and opposite reaction is set in motion for the recovery of balance. A simple shift of imagination from what concerns me to what concerns my context. What energies may I invest in presenting and promoting an alternative to competition as the dominant rubric of our market economy? How far will I carry forward my insight contrary to popular opinion? Such things remain to be seen.

I have used your quote on spiritual teachers advocating the way of learning and moderation. Why is the invitation to temperance suppressed in the popular imagination by corporate propaganda? Why are top bankers alarmed concerning the debt load being carried by consumers in the social economy? This while the respective banks persistently advertise the ready availability of even more debt. With the consent of government (the people?).

It may take time to get the language right. The insight is valid and pertinent to our emergent context.

We reach to the right and we reach to the left. Between the two reaching hands beats one human heart. A heart much wounded by the misunderstanding governing the relations of one hand to the other.

To obtain the new we must put off the old. There is no way out of it. Avoidance simply complicates the process and intensifies the consequence. Repression produces a collective neurosis which is highly infectious during anxious times.

George

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

Man exploits man
and the opposite
Man exploits man

 

[Ritafee]

The following is from Sacred Economics: Money, Gift, and Society in the Age of Transition, available fromEVOLVER EDITIONS/North Atlantic Books. Return to the Sacred Economics content page here.

"Looking down from Olympian heights, the financiers called themselves “masters of the universe,” channeling the power of the god they served to bring fortune or ruin upon the masses, to literally move mountains, raze forests, change the course of rivers, cause the rise and fall of nations. But money soon proved to be a capricious god. As I write these words, it seems that the increasingly frantic rituals that the financial priesthood uses to placate the god Money are in vain. Like the clergy of a dying religion, they exhort their followers to greater sacrifices while blaming their misfortunes either on sin (greedy bankers, irresponsible consumers) or on the mysterious whims of God (the financial markets). But some are already blaming the priests themselves.

What we call recession, an earlier culture might have called “God abandoning the world.” Money is disappearing, and with it another property of spirit: the animating force of the human realm. At this writing, all over the world machines stand idle. Factories have ground to a halt; construction equipment sits derelict in the yard; parks and libraries are closing; and millions go homeless and hungry while housing units stand vacant and food rots in the warehouses. Yet all the human and material inputs to build the houses, distribute the food, and run the factories still exist. It is rather something immaterial, that animating spirit, which has fled. What has fled is money. That is the only thing missing, so insubstantial (in the form of electrons in computers) that it can hardly be said to exist at all, yet so powerful that without it, human productivity grinds to a halt. On the individual level as well, we can see the demotivating effects of lack of money. Consider the stereotype of the unemployed man, nearly broke, slouched in front of the TV in his undershirt, drinking a beer, hardly able to rise from his chair. Money, it seems, animates people as well as machines. Without it we are dispirited.

We do not realize that our concept of the divine has attracted to it a god that fits that concept, and given it sovereignty over the earth. By divorcing soul from flesh, spirit from matter, and God from nature, we have installed a ruling power that is soulless, alienating, ungodly, and unnatural. "

 

[Pinga]

"In a communal society, there is no incentive, other than the greater good."

This nicely states the Capitalizing mind on encounter with indigenous sensibility. We may look at this by considering tobacco as a natural substance used by an indigenous people. How was it regarded by the indigenous people? How was it regarded by the Colonizers?

Hebrew scriptures notice the problem of harlotry. The selling of one's productive ability for use by another. Working for money. Why? To transcend the natural order and occupy the manufactured order? The eclipse of the natural by the rise of the artificial?

Private interest has eclipsed the common good. A particular has crossed a boundary and the universal is in jeopardy.

George

George, i cannot reconcile my understanding of human nature with your ideology.

Use of the word harlotry, in response to dialogues on working as a garbage man, bookkeeper or manufacturer seems odd. Your definition seems even odder, as the concept of harlotry includes a lack of respect for what is being purchased, or degradation. Don't see that in most people's work/product.

Why do you presume that working for money transcends the natural order?

I am trying to understand what type of world you are imagining that would support your proposals, and how people that I meet in my real world would live within it. I've also tried to reflect on a place that either currently or in recent history has been what you imagine.
You reference first nations; however, they too fought over territory, property,

 

[Pinga]

"Yet, I recognize that most people do not take the jobs of garbage truck driver, or book keeper, or manufacturer in the interests of benefiting the common good. They do so to have a living for their family to suit what they feel is appropriate. For some, that need will be more than others. They also contribute to the common good through sharing income, or providing volunteer hours. They do it through their lives of being good people." Pinga

All of this is in play only where money is involved. Capitalism has effectively "monetized" all our relations. This as an imposition by which the natural is suppressed and the artificial endorsed and promoted. There are alternatives in which worth is not measured by money or what money can obtain. These alternatives have been present to human experience in all the ages. At times they have been explored and developed. Invariably to fall back as the struggle for power through profit finds opportunity and takes advantage.

George

Umm, communism also has roles with pecking orders and those pecking orders provided higher privileges/rights. If you don't think so, then, speak with people who have lived in a communist country.
Although you may not have the desire for property or comfort, you are an exception in society.
If you are in doubt, look at the people who set out to travel the world, seeking better for their families, those who look for job prootions or move jobs to have what they perceive as a better life, farmers who plant crops.
It isn't about power through profit, it is about the basic human nature to desire comfort and safety.

 

[Luce NDs]

"In a communal society, there is no incentive, other than the greater good."

This nicely states the Capitalizing mind on encounter with indigenous sensibility. We may look at this by considering tobacco as a natural substance used by an indigenous people. How was it regarded by the indigenous people? How was it regarded by the Colonizers?

Hebrew scriptures notice the problem of harlotry. The selling of one's productive ability for use by another. Working for money. Why? To transcend the natural order and occupy the manufactured order? The eclipse of the natural by the rise of the artificial?

Private interest has eclipsed the common good. A particular has crossed a boundary and the universal is in jeopardy.

George

Sort of like selling the broad-based sol (psyche) just for the love of profits instead of the psychic pain?

 

[Luce NDs]

Tis all about unbalanced polity ... extremes expressed in metaphor as in a flat out world ... truth is unacceptable !

Thus that out-there sensation as Papillion ... or the butterfly effect when about to do the great escape ... from the devil's isle of isolationism?

 

[Luce NDs]

Man exploits man
and the opposite
Man exploits man

And some say there is no wholly enigma about this self-consuming activity! Tis a hairy experience to say least of speak of lessor things as doled out ... temporal loans?

 

[GeoFee]

I appreciate the critical concern expressed above. My start point is that we are facing a problem of substantial magnitude and that this problem has its roots in acquisitive rivalry. I may not be using the correct words and this may be putting some readers off. Understandable.

A key sticking point is my use of the word "capitalism" to give a focus to the problem. I persist in using it in view of the domination of capitalist ideologies in our present social economy. My perspective is informed by a life time of reading and reflection concerned with ideas by which human experience is informed and directed. This reading includes diverse ancient and modern perspectives. Principle voices among from the ancient period include Gautama, Socrates, Lao Tzu and Jesus. Each of these voices indicates temperance relative to material concern and education relative to spiritual concern.

It is among the modern thinkers that I find ideas requiring critical concern. These include persons such as Francis Bacon, John Locke, Rene Descartes and Thomas Hobbes. Along with many others, these challenged inherited notions related to personal ethics and the common good. Among these thinkers the free exercise of power stands as a high value. This specifically in respect of our relationship with the natural order. Rather than adapt to our environment, modern ideologies promote the subjugation and exploitation of nature.

I am assuming that each of you has a fair degree of liberty related to your economic situation. This is not the case for the great majority of human being on the planet. Many do not work from the desire to express productive liberty. These work to obtain the basic necessities of life on earth. This is not work chosen to express personal initiative or inclination. Stated simply (simplistically?) these are forced by prevailing economic realities to sell the use of their bodies to survive.

Those same economic realities will cast off such persons once their bodies are no longer required or if payment for the use of their bodies begins to influence bottom line considerations. We may think of the economic realities of cities like Detroit and Windsor as the manufacture of automobiles is moved to other contexts where labour is available at much reduced levels of payment. This is one example of multiple cases where capitalist "overlords" use and discard people to maximize investor return.

We will all experience the economic catastrophe now in the works. History makes plain that the unregulated rise of power by some at the expense of others brings unwelcome consequence. A matter of sowing and reaping, considered metaphorically. I will sow the available good acquired by my freely expressed labour as an investment in the common good. I long ago relinquished by right to private advantage as the expense of the common good. This does not mean I refuse appropriate compensation for my labour. It does mean that such compensation is not my inspiration or motive.

George

 

[Ritafee]

...we are facing a problem of substantial magnitude and that this problem has its roots in acquisitive rivalry.

Rather than adapt to our environment, modern ideologies promote the subjugation and exploitation of nature.

I am assuming that each of you has a fair degree of liberty related to your economic situation.

This is not the case for the great majority of human being on the planet.

Stated simply these are forced by prevailing economic realities to sell the use of their bodies to survive.

We will all experience the economic catastrophe now in the works.

...the unregulated rise of power by some at the expense of others brings unwelcome consequence.

I long ago relinquished my right to private advantage as the expense of the common good.

This does not mean I refuse appropriate compensation for my labour.

It does mean that such compensation is not my inspiration or motive. George

I am trying to understand what type of world you are imagining .... how people that I meet in my real world would live within it.

I've also tried to reflect on a place that either currently or in recent history has been what you imagine.

It appears to me that George is pointing out the world the way it is - your 'real' world so to speak. I understand the alternatives that he proposes and implements - were we all to follow his example things would naturally turn towards common good.

With regards to you reflecting on a place that has or will be a place that not only George imagines - I see no evidence of you ever having done so - you consistently defend your 'right' to private advantage at the expense of the common good. Censoring my comment above is just another example of your lack of transparency ... you claim to be contributing to society by going back to work instead of taking the 'easy way out' and living on your 'more than adequate pension' - but mention of the nature of the 'work' that you do is forbidden?

Regardless ... I foresee as George does ... 'We will all experience the economic catastrophe now in the works' - perhaps when the playing field is leveled ... 'common ground' whether by choice or circumstance - is the catalyst needed to inspire a new way of being human in nature.

 

[GeoFee]

 

[GeoFee]

"...farmers who plant crops..." Pinga

In the early days rural Canada flourished. There were countless examples of family farms. The primary goal was subsistence. A secondary goal was conviviality. With dedicated insight and cooperative labour these farm families prospered. Neighbourliness was a high value and character was taken as true "currency".

With progress things changed. Rural Canada is nearly disappeared. Family farms have been purchased through the years (often following mortgage default) and now comprise the aggregate land holding of diverse agribusinesses. This has been a boon to the money economy. It has exacted a toll on the family farm culture it dispossessed. History shows that the displacement of agrarian culture corresponds to the rise of urban economies. The natural eclipsed by the artificial. Thoreau is engaging on this.

You cannot read history and fail to notice that the rise of City States and Corporate state indicate a decline in human wellness at every level. At their peek they tend to decadence and dissolution. Something Socrates notices in Plato's "Gorgias". We are now overwhelmed by such decadence and dissolution. Look at the science specific to diet and disease. Notice the place of salt, sugar and fat. Think about what McDonald's has fed children for two generations. Flavoured sugar water in large volumes, fatty burgers and salty fries. McDonalds offered only as an example of a pervasive pattern in the public market.

This is good for money. It is not good for human being in creation.

With appreciation for the engagement,

George

 

[Pontifex Geronimo 13]

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and tried to convince everybody that talents were bad.

 

[GeoFee]

It appears to me that George is pointing out the world the way it is - your 'real' world so to speak. I understand the alternatives that he proposes and implements - were we all to follow his example things would naturally turn towards common good.

With regards to you reflecting on a place that has or will be a place that not only George imagines - I see no evidence of you ever having done so - you consistently defend your 'right' to private advantage at the expense of the common good. Censoring my comment above is just another example of your lack of transparency ... you claim to be contributing to society by going back to work instead of taking the 'easy way out' and living on your 'more than adequate pension' - but mention of the nature of the 'work' that you do is forbidden?

Regardless ... I foresee as George does ... 'We will all experience the economic catastrophe now in the works' - perhaps when the playing field is leveled ... 'common ground' whether by choice or circumstance - is the catalyst needed to inspire a new way of being human in nature.

It would have been good had the dreamers and engineers of our present social structures learned something from history. Having resisted the hard lesson we are now set to enter the consequence of our decisions along the way. In the main those decisions were made by a few and "sold" to the many.

Socrates calls us to take seriously the question of human identity and purpose. Jesus does the same five hundred years later. Why would I disagree with these exemplars?

In youth the injustice angered me. That anger energized my resistance. It also frustrated my hope. Experience has taught me that anger was a useful defense against sorrow. I have been putting it off for some time now. The sorrow is surfacing as it becomes clear that there will be no "repentance" in high places. The problem of hubris and nemesis.

George

 

[Ritafee]

“You cannot imagine what sorrow and anger seize one's whole soul when a great idea, which one has long and piously revered, is picked up by some bunglers and dragged into the street, to more fools like themselves, and one suddenly meets it in the flea market, unrecognizable, dirty, askew, absurdly presented, without proportion, without harmony, a toy for stupid children.” - Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Demons

 

[dreamerman]

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and tried to convince everybody that talents were bad.

The gospel according to PG 13.

 

[GeoFee]

“You cannot imagine what sorrow and anger seize one's whole soul when a great idea, which one has long and piously revered, is picked up by some bunglers and dragged into the street, to more fools like themselves, and one suddenly meets it in the flea market, unrecognizable, dirty, askew, absurdly presented, without proportion, without harmony, a toy for stupid children.” - Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Demons

Dostoevsky's "The Idiot" marked a turning point for me. Offered an Eastern perspective to question and balance my inherited Western world view. Later Tolstoi encouraged me along the opening way.

With great appreciation for all the authors who inspired and challenged me through the years. By the light of their insight and example I am encouraged to persist as a single one in service to the transcendent whole.

George

 

[GeoFee]

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and tried to convince everybody that talents were bad.

Nice to find a chuckle in the thread.

I have at no time and in no way disparaged the investment of talents freely given. In the material realm I am industrious and thrifty. I also hold to frugality as the remedy for excess. A little wine brings blessing. Too much brings dissension and division.

The parables are told to reveal the way of God that is not limited by human understanding or definition. The way of creative freedom in history as human being. The parable of the talents lets us see something about how things are understood in the kingdom of heaven.

I became an Anabaptist at age thirty. Rising from the water I was blessed by the Holy Spirit. From that moment till now the Holy Spirit has been my only teacher and guide. Along the way of my experience with God I have been transformed. What I was I no longer am. What I am is not yet what I will be.

At thirty the seed of my life fell into the ground and died. From that death a new creation rose. No longer a material man. A spiritual man. You know? Old Adam and New Adam in the thinking of Paul?

Up till thirty I invested my available good according to the way of the world. At thirty I divested myself of all consent to the way of the world. This began a journey of transformation which is now approaching its maturity.

Those who put their trust in Prime Ministers, Presidents and Kings are about to be deeply disappointed.

By all means invest what you have been given in life. Investing in the common good you will not be disappointed. Investing in private interest will not bring a pleasant outcome.

Simple science, cause and effect - decision and consequence.

George

 

[Pinga]

I appreciate the critical concern expressed above. My start point is that we are facing a problem of substantial magnitude and that this problem has its roots in acquisitive rivalry. I may not be using the correct words and this may be putting some readers off. Understandable.

A key sticking point is my use of the word "capitalism" to give a focus to the problem. I persist in using it in view of the domination of capitalist ideologies in our present social economy. My perspective is informed by a life time of reading and reflection concerned with ideas by which human experience is informed and directed. This reading includes diverse ancient and modern perspectives. Principle voices among from the ancient period include Gautama, Socrates, Lao Tzu and Jesus. Each of these voices indicates temperance relative to material concern and education relative to spiritual concern.

It is among the modern thinkers that I find ideas requiring critical concern. These include persons such as Francis Bacon, John Locke, Rene Descartes and Thomas Hobbes. Along with many others, these challenged inherited notions related to personal ethics and the common good. Among these thinkers the free exercise of power stands as a high value. This specifically in respect of our relationship with the natural order. Rather than adapt to our environment, modern ideologies promote the subjugation and exploitation of nature.

I am assuming that each of you has a fair degree of liberty related to your economic situation. This is not the case for the great majority of human being on the planet. Many do not work from the desire to express productive liberty. These work to obtain the basic necessities of life on earth. This is not work chosen to express personal initiative or inclination. Stated simply (simplistically?) these are forced by prevailing economic realities to sell the use of their bodies to survive.

Those same economic realities will cast off such persons once their bodies are no longer required or if payment for the use of their bodies begins to influence bottom line considerations. We may think of the economic realities of cities like Detroit and Windsor as the manufacture of automobiles is moved to other contexts where labour is available at much reduced levels of payment. This is one example of multiple cases where capitalist "overlords" use and discard people to maximize investor return.

We will all experience the economic catastrophe now in the works. History makes plain that the unregulated rise of power by some at the expense of others brings unwelcome consequence. A matter of sowing and reaping, considered metaphorically. I will sow the available good acquired by my freely expressed labour as an investment in the common good. I long ago relinquished by right to private advantage as the expense of the common good. This does not mean I refuse appropriate compensation for my labour. It does mean that such compensation is not my inspiration or motive.

George

You refer to Windsor/Detroit and capitalist overlords, yet, there are people who were actively chasing those jobs for their own lands. They desire those jobs in other lands, countries, regions.

I am well aware of many manufuacturing jobs that moved to a northern rural/small town area from a large city. The smaller city that got the jobs and manufucturing was thrilled, as were the people who moved into jobs with benefits and livable wages. The people working in those jobs are happy. The ones who no longer work in the big city plant are not. The purchasers of those products are happy, quality is good.

I know more about IT off-shoring of work. I can tell you that the groups that got the jobs from the locations in the US (and Canada) were thrilled to get them, as they are part of the building or restoring of the middle class in their respective areas (Poland/India).
I remember well the day that the internet went to the small village of one of my contractors, why? because he was working with us and needed to be able to get online on the weekend. That day transformed the community, and they were thrilled. His social standing increased dramatically in his community because of the positive change having that internet access brought.

I wish you would ask more of real-life and how people are and what their lives are like. Although it is wonderful to dream, the reality is really exciting. The world is being transformed in good ways.

I would expect that you, @GeoFee would be someone who was for the movement of jobs to a more global context. I am surprised that you appear to be supporting protectionism and "our" jobs over all others.

 

[Pinga]

It appears to me that George is pointing out the world the way it is - your 'real' world so to speak. I understand the alternatives that he proposes and implements - were we all to follow his example things would naturally turn towards common good.

With regards to you reflecting on a place that has or will be a place that not only George imagines - I see no evidence of you ever having done so - you consistently defend your 'right' to private advantage at the expense of the common good. Censoring my comment above is just another example of your lack of transparency ... you claim to be contributing to society by going back to work instead of taking the 'easy way out' and living on your 'more than adequate pension' - but mention of the nature of the 'work' that you do is forbidden?

Regardless ... I foresee as George does ... 'We will all experience the economic catastrophe now in the works' - perhaps when the playing field is leveled ... 'common ground' whether by choice or circumstance - is the catalyst needed to inspire a new way of being human in nature.

Hmmm, I don't see how my right to working harder and gaining more income is at the expense of the common good. In fact, my working harder and gaining more income is at the benefit of the common good. My givings have risen and will continue to rise with my income.

The censoring was due to the explicit naming of a few aspects of what I do. I am happy to have you speak regarding IT professionals, but, would rather not be more specific due to google searches.

I have searched for "easy way out" and "more than adequate" in any post that I have done, and cannot find any. If you could point them out, that would be awesome. What I sense is you are reading into other things that I have said in this thread or in "covet".

If economic catastrophe occurs, we will likely see the worst and the best. There will be those who are kind and generous, but, I guess I am guessing that those pockets of people will be overrun/ruled by those who are more about the fittest and the strongest. (I would love for you to give me an example of a place where in the midst of war, famine or flood, that generosity was how society responded.