Liberal Christian denominations

[Mendalla]

And the problem is you have no firm set of beliefs to market. You're not complete dicks about what you believe. That's good, but it hurts you because your message is not simple.

Make no mistake, you would benefit numbers-wise from a more strict faith. You'd just be less tolerable to everyone else.

Tough call.

Exactly. It's a smaller version of the UU evangelism problem: If you don't have a firm set of doctrines, what exactly are you selling? Offering freedom of belief and respect for everyone's beliefs seems to only carry with certain subsets of the population, mostly educated, intellectual sorts and/or those who have been put off by the beliefs of other churches. Many people who are actively looking for a church are looking for one that offers answers. If your focus is on helping people find their own answers, rather than spoon-feeding them your answers or providing a set of simple answers that they can measure against their own beliefs, it can be a surprisingly tough sell.

 

[chansen]

Authority likes simple rules that are easy to enforce, but so does the target market. Many people want to believe in something. They want comfort, and delusions can provide that. But not if they have no set framework. If you aren't *sure* about God, or about heaven and its prerequisites, then you aren't going to appeal to people who want simple answers and are willing to set aside their Sunday mornings to get them.

 

[chansen]

Exactly. It's a smaller version of the UU evangelism problem: If you don't have a firm set of doctrines, what exactly are you selling? Offering freedom of belief and respect for everyone's beliefs seems to only carry with certain subsets of the population, mostly educated, intellectual sorts and/or those who have been put off by the beliefs of other churches. Many people who are actively looking for a church are looking for one that offers answers. If your focus is on helping people find their own answers, rather than spoon-feeding them your answers or providing a set of simple answers that they can measure against their own beliefs, it can be a surprisingly tough sell.

Yes, though I don't know what's surprising about it. So people are searching for meaning and purpose and all that jazz. Why should they come to you, when you're searching, too? Great, you're all educated folks and searching, but they have other things to do on Sunday. They belong to other clubs. Their kids have activities. The family is engaged in sports. Why interrupt their lives to go to church?

I don't have an answer to that. Families don't have an answer to that. The United Church probably doesn't understand the question.

 

[Luce NDs]

Exactly. It's a smaller version of the UU evangelism problem: If you don't have a firm set of doctrines, what exactly are you selling? Offering freedom of belief and respect for everyone's beliefs seems to only carry with certain subsets of the population, mostly educated, intellectual sorts and/or those who have been put off by the beliefs of other churches. Many people who are actively looking for a church are looking for one that offers answers. If your focus is on helping people find their own answers, rather than spoon-feeding them your answers or providing a set of simple answers that they can measure against their own beliefs, it can be a surprisingly tough sell.

Does allow a fluid mind as one old myth that says water is the support system for sol ... and light reflects there! Kind've a dance on the Mare Eire parts ...

 

[Dave Henderson]

The United Church of Canada certainly does have a firm set of beliefs. And the primary one is a belief in God. The nature of God is something that might vary widely within our denomination, but belief in that God, no matter how she or he might be perceived is the rock we stand on. The same applies to the triune God. God has revealed him/herself to us in three different ways; how we perceive those ways many differ, but they too are bedrock beliefs.

 

[Dave Henderson]

Okay, dumb new guy here...how do you cut and paste "Joe said:" on a post?

 

[chansen]

Okay, dumb new guy here...how do you cut and paste "Joe said:" on a post?

Click the "Reply" button on the bottom right of the post you wish to quote. It will copy that post and the necessary code to create the quotation box into your reply. Then you just reply below. I proclaim that it works.

 

[chansen]

The United Church of Canada certainly does have a firm set of beliefs. And the primary one is a belief in God.

Yeah. About that...

The nature of God is something that might vary widely within our denomination,...

And here we go already. Does God send people to heaven? To hell? What the heck does the touchy-feely "separation from God" answer mean? Can God stop bad things from happening? Does he reward me for good deeds? For belief?

Ask these and other basic questions in a UCCan setting, and be prepared for as many different answers to each question as there are replies.

You don't have simple answers. It's debatable that you have answers at all.

...but belief in that God, no matter how she or he might be perceived is the rock we stand on. The same applies to the triune God. God has revealed him/herself to us in three different ways; how we perceive those ways many differ, but they too are bedrock beliefs.

Great. You believe, and anyone who does not believe should get out, then.

Does that include members? Adherents? What if they don't believe in your "bedrock"? Because I'm reading that they don't belong, belief in what you can't show being a "bedrock" and all.

 

[Dave Henderson]

Click the "Reply" button on the bottom right of the post you wish to quote. It will copy that post and the necessary code to create the quotation box into your reply. Then you just reply below. I proclaim that it works.

Thanks Swami, your proclamation came true!

 

[chansen]

That makes one of us.

 

[Dave Henderson]

Yeah. About that...



And here we go already. Does God send people to heaven? To hell? What the heck does the touchy-feely "separation from God" answer mean? Can God stop bad things from happening? Does he reward me for good deeds? For belief?

Ask these and other basic questions in a UCCan setting, and be prepared for as many different answers to each question as there are replies.

You don't have simple answers. It's debatable that you have answers at all.



Great. You believe, and anyone who does not believe should get out, then.

Does that include members? Adherents? What if they don't believe in your "bedrock"? Because I'm reading that they don't belong, belief in what you can't show being a "bedrock" and all.

I would consider those who don't believe seekers, inquirers, explorers. And they would share with me what they are seeking and where it is taking them and I would share with them where my seeking has taken me and where it is taking me.

 

[chansen]

That sounds either impressively or disturbingly like Gretta Vosper. Depending on your take.

 

[Dave Henderson]

Yeah. About that...



And here we go already. Does God send people to heaven? To hell? What the heck does the touchy-feely "separation from God" answer mean? Can God stop bad things from happening? Does he reward me for good deeds? For belief?

Ask these and other basic questions in a UCCan setting, and be prepared for as many different answers to each question as there are replies.

You don't have simple answers. It's debatable that you have answers at all.



Great. You believe, and anyone who does not believe should get out, then.

Does that include members? Adherents? What if they don't believe in your "bedrock"? Because I'm reading that they don't belong, belief in what you can't show being a "bedrock" and all.

Question the first: God doesn't send people to Heaven or Hell, people make choices in their lives that determine their destination. Question the second: "Separation from God" is a whitewashed term for Hell. A lantern jawed man with a chin beard, horns, pointy tale and a pitchfork is the most familiar (and dumb) image at one end of the belief spectrum concerning Hell. "Separation from God" is a sanitized term for Hell found at the other end. Question the third: Yes, God can stop bad things from happening. Does he always do it? We all know he does not. And when he does not, people weep bitter tears. We weep with them. God weeps with them. Why do bad things happen to good people? Where was God when cancer took my Dad, who still had lots to do and offer? I don't know. I do believe my Dad went to heaven and that he is at peace. That must do for now, along with the arms I have to hold others who are asking that same question with broken hearts. Question the fourth: God doesn't reward you for good deeds, simply because doing good deeds is as innate to our nature as breathing. The prophet Jeremiah said that God has written his/her laws on our hearts. That means we know innately, deep down in our guts, that doing the right thing, aka "good deeds" is what we as humans should be doing. A woman risks her life when she runs into a burning building if she has a chance to save someone. It goes against reason and logic to risk your life, but you know deep down it's what should be done. Question the fifth and final: If God rewards me for belief I might be in a jam. But I just can't see myself standing at the pearly gates hearing Saint Peter say, "Hey we'd love to let you in Dave, but you just didn't believe enough." By the way, Saint Peter will have a beard, wings and be sitting at a desk in front of a log book with a feathered pen in his hand...;-)

 

[Mendalla]

Question the first: God doesn't send people to Heaven or Hell, people make choices in their lives that determine their destination. Question the second: "Separation from God" is a whitewashed term for Hell. A lantern jawed man with a chin beard, horns, pointy tale and a pitchfork is the most familiar (and dumb) image at one end of the belief spectrum concerning Hell. "Separation from God" is a sanitized term for Hell found at the other end. Question the third: Yes, God can stop bad things from happening. Does he always do it? We all know he does not. And when he does not, people weep bitter tears. We weep with them. God weeps with them. Why do bad things happen to good people? Where was God when cancer took my Dad, who still had lots to do and offer? I don't know. I do believe my Dad went to heaven and that he is at peace. That must do for now, along with the arms I have to hold others who are asking that same question with broken hearts. Question the fourth: God doesn't reward you for good deeds, simply because doing good deeds is as innate to our nature as breathing. The prophet Jeremiah said that God has written his/her laws on our hearts. That means we know innately, deep down in our guts, that doing the right thing, aka "good deeds" is what we as humans should be doing. A woman risks her life when she runs into a burning building if she has a chance to save someone. It goes against reason and logic to risk your life, but you know deep down it's what should be done. Question the fifth and final: If God rewards me for belief I might be in a jam. But I just can't see myself standing at the pearly gates hearing Saint Peter say, "Hey we'd love to let you in Dave, but you just didn't believe enough." By the way, Saint Peter will have a beard, wings and be sitting at a desk in front of a log book with a feathered pen in his hand...;-)

All in your opinion, though. There are even people in the UCCan who would kick holes in that, let alone non-UCCan Christians of a more conservative bent. What chansen and I are essentially saying is that you can't use your beliefs to market the UCCan because you aren't representative of the church. No one is, from a relative conservative like David Shearman to the prog extreme represented by Vosper. If the UCCan is to evangelize, what is it that they are evangelizing when there is such a range of beliefs in the church?

Belief in God and beyond that it's up to you isn't much of a firm belief.

 

[Dave Henderson]

All in your opinion, though. There are even people in the UCCan who would kick holes in that, let alone non-UCCan Christians of a more conservative bent. What chansen and I are essentially saying is that you can't use your beliefs to market the UCCan because you aren't representative of the church. No one is, from a relative conservative like David Shearman to the prog extreme represented by Vosper. If the UCCan is to evangelize, what is it that they are evangelizing when there is such a range of beliefs in the church?

Belief in God and beyond that it's up to you isn't much of a firm belief.

Remember, Christianity is a bottom up faith. The issues I discussed with Chansen encompassed by faith stance. Yes, another believer in the United Church of Canada might respond differently to all those questions. But at the end of the day, we can stand together and say, "We are in fundamental disagreement about much, but we are in essential agreement in the existence of God, atheist ministers notwithstanding. Are we in essential agreement regarding the existence of God? Between Barth's "wholly other" and Tillich's "ground of being" is there essential agreement on the existence of God? I believe there is. And it is from that bedrock the United Church can evangelize.

 

[chansen]

Right out of the gate, lots of UCCan people will disagree with "Answer the first." And really, all you're saying is that people, having been provided zero evidence to follow, need to choose to follow the correct version of the correct belief system, when there is no evidence to guide the choice. Entrance to heaven, then, is via a lottery system.

What a great God you've got there.

There is certainly a movement afoot to make the UCCan into a more homogeneous believing entity. It's a good idea from a marketing perspective, if you want to market to simple people. Marketing to questioners and skeptics is much more difficult. You clearly don't have anything that would satisfy a skeptic like myself, though I do get to have some fun with beliefs like that.

It's good that you say, "I don't know." That's hard for some people. Some Christians here think that's a weakness, and would prefer a confident bulls**t answer to one that admits an ignorance.

The way I see it, none of us know, because none of us can demonstrate a thing. in the absence of better information, I do what I think is good and right. But I don't need a church for that. I don't see the point. Especially when I think much of what is in the bible is quite immoral. And that's always going to be a problem for you when promoting the faith. And it's something you can't change. Because of the nature of faith, you can't edit the textbook, and it's the one textbook that needs an edit more than any other.

 

[KayTheCurler]

I would consider those who don't believe seekers, inquirers, explorers. And they would share with me what they are seeking and where it is taking them and I would share with them where my seeking has taken me and where it is taking me.

That sounds 'just ducky' as my late Nana used to say. When the seeker, inquirer, explorer, has radically different ideas from you where will that lead them? I suspect it will lead them out of the congregation as they see that they are a committee of one, that their style of seeking is considered unacceptable as it doesn't constantly reference 'God'.

Another major problem arises if they share that they are seeking a community of (mostly) caring people. People who are energised by new ideas. People who love other people. People who have explored various forms of centering and feel comfortable talking about their experiences. People who don't recoil in horror when another person shares their meditation technique, their yoga exercise, their fascination with visionaries/mystics of various traditions.

My life experience has shown me that these seekers aren't really wanted in churches of any denomination. They may however, accept people who have the same relationship with 'the divine' now they are seventy, that they had when they were seven.

 

[Mendalla]

Remember, Christianity is a bottom up faith. The issues I discussed with Chansen encompassed by faith stance. Yes, another believer in the United Church of Canada might respond differently to all those questions. But at the end of the day, we can stand together and say, "We are in fundamental disagreement about much, but we are in essential agreement in the existence of God, atheist ministers notwithstanding. Are we in essential agreement regarding the existence of God? Between Barth's "wholly other" and Tillich's "ground of being" is there essential agreement on the existence of God? I believe there is. And it is from that bedrock the United Church can evangelize.

And does a pantheist idea of a Divine Cosmos that is self-driven and self-sustaining (ie. no transcendent intelligence) fit in there or is that too close to atheism?

 

[chansen]

Remember, Christianity is a bottom up faith. The issues I discussed with Chansen encompassed by faith stance. Yes, another believer in the United Church of Canada might respond differently to all those questions. But at the end of the day, we can stand together and say, "We are in fundamental disagreement about much, but we are in essential agreement in the existence of God, atheist ministers notwithstanding. Are we in essential agreement regarding the existence of God? Between Barth's "wholly other" and Tillich's "ground of being" is there essential agreement on the existence of God? I believe there is. And it is from that bedrock the United Church can evangelize.

I don't think you have that right now. I think many people are working to achieve that, but you're not there. You have no ability to convince the people who are not with you. They are there despite people like you, not because of you or what you claim your bedrock is.

The population of the country is moving away from the beliefs you are trying to make your foundation. I think your foundation should be the good you do, not the impossible you believe. But that's just me.

 

[chansen]

And does a pantheist idea of a Divine Cosmos that is self-driven and self-sustaining (ie. no transcendent intelligence) fit in there or is that too close to atheism?

Let me see...

...divine cosmos....self-driven....

Ah, here it is. And for that, you get...

..."Lake of Fire"

Sorry.