Survey of UCC ministers

[RichardBott]

Even I don't say that. I'm almost positive that Gretta doesn't say that. There is no evidence. In the absence of evidence, and with all the competing claims about the nature of God appearing ridiculous, I can not believe. I can not know.for sure, but under the circumstances, living my life as if there is no God is the best solution I can come up with.

Chansen, from my perspective, that is what I would understand to be classical agnosticism. Although I don't adhere to it, it is a worldview makes a great deal of sense.

Within a Christian context, though, the spiritual head of the church (whatever else one thinks about Jesus) believed in God, if we're believe anything of what the gospel texts say about him. In that context, wouldn't it be fair to have an expectation that ministers who are agnostic would come down on the side of "living my life as if there is a God" as the solution?

 

[chansen]

Chansen, from my perspective, that is what I would understand to be classical agnosticism. Although I don't adhere to it, it is a worldview makes a great deal of sense.

Gnosticism is a claim about knowledge. Those who are agnostic say that the existence of God is unknowable. Gnostics say they can know.

To be completely clear, I'd be an agnostic atheist. Those terms are not mutually exclusive. Atheism is not believing, it is not believing in nonexistence. Those who are sure there is no God are gnostic atheists.

Within a Christian context, though, the spiritual head of the church (whatever else one thinks about Jesus) believed in God, if we're believe anything of what the gospel texts say about him. In that context, wouldn't it be fair to have an expectation that ministers who are agnostic would come down on the side of "living my life as if there is a God" as the solution?

That would be an agnostic theist. My reply is that belief is not a choice. I can not choose to believe in God. 20% of your respondents can not believe in the supernatural aspects of God. The battle seems to be if the UCCAN has room for non-traditional views about God, where learning and spirituality are not dependent upon belief in existence or dogmatic adherence to one book. It is really, really hard for some people to believe the stories are true and thay God exists. But my understanding is they want to be part of the church. Others are embarrassed by their very existence. Try as I might, I can not care about their embarrassment.

 

[RichardBott]

Gnosticism is a claim about knowledge. Those who are agnostic say that thebwzistence of God is unknowable. Gnostic say they can lnow

[/QUOTE]

(I'm still trying to figure out how the quote feature works!)

Ok. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[chansen]

Yeah, sorry about the quality of the text there. Inadvertent reply before it was ready. Phone screens make for lousy keyboards. The post is now edited and much more complete.

 

[RichardBott]

But my understanding is they want to be part of the church. Others are embarrassed by their very existence. Try as I might, I can not care about their embarrassment.

[FONT=Open Sans, sans-serif]I had to move to my computer because I kept messing up what I was saying on the phone. Autocorrect issues.

Chansen, can you tell me more about why you name it as embarrassment?

For me, it feels more like an identity question.[/FONT]

 

[chansen]

The comments I see online are of Gretta opponents who are embarrassed to be associated with her. Rev. James Lepard made that ridiculous YouTube video. Countless others have been downright nasty on Facebook and in Observer comments. They don't so much care about Gretta - they care about other people associating them with Gretta. They embarrass easily, and they think it is perfectly reasonable to tear down another congregation so they don't feel embarrassed.

 

[paradox3]

Might be interesting to see this data sliced for other demographics - age, rural/urban, years in ministry, etc.

I suspect that Gretta's 50% was more inherently self-selected than your survey, in that she would naturally gravitate towards the more progressive of her colleagues.

As I recall from the interview with Wendy Mesley, the 50% figure was a quote Gretta offered from someone else. I didn't have the sense that she had done any sort of formal or informal survey herself.

 

[paradox3]

Even I don't say that. I'm almost positive that Gretta doesn't say that. There is no evidence. In the absence of evidence, and with all the competing claims about the nature of God appearing ridiculous, I can not believe. I can not know.for sure, but under the circumstances, living my life as if there is no God is the best solution I can come up with.

I would say you are understanding this aspect of Gretta's worldview correctly. She describes herself as a "soft" atheist.

 

[RichardBott]

The comments I see online are of Gretta opponents who are embarrassed to be associated with her. Rev. James Lepard made that ridiculous YouTube video. Countless others have been downright nasty on Facebook and in Observer comments. They don't so much care about Gretta - they care about other people associating them with Gretta. They embarrass easily, and they think it is perfectly reasonable to tear down another congregation so they don't feel embarrassed.

I can see that... I have to wonder if it is a fear reaction.

 

[chansen]

I would say you are understanding this aspect of Gretta's worldview correctly. She describes herself as a "soft" atheist.

That's another way of saying the same thing.

 

[GordW]

As I recall from the interview with Wendy Mesley, the 50% figure was a quote Gretta offered from someone else. I didn't have the sense that she had done any sort of formal or informal survey herself.

ANd I believe someone on FB (might even have been @RichardBott ) contacted the source Gretta named and learned she had either (intentionally or inadvertently) misunderstood the original or had straight out misquoted.

 

[BetteTheRed]

ANd I believe someone on FB (might even have been @RichardBott ) contacted the source Gretta named and learned she had either (intentionally or inadvertently) misunderstood the original or had straight out misquoted.

And I would suggest that were we "True" Christians, we'd start with the assumption that she had inadvertently misunderstood... Certainly, her work with, and association with, the Clergy Project, colours her perspective of where her colleagues lie on that complex, multi-faceted set of continuums that might describe a "god" concept.

 

[RichardBott]

As I recall from the interview with Wendy Mesley, the 50% figure was a quote Gretta offered from someone else. I didn't have the sense that she had done any sort of formal or informal survey herself.

Gretta did attribute the 50% quote to the Principal of Emmanuel College. In conversation with Dr. Toulouse, he was clear that he had been misquoted, so I attributed the quote to Gretta (since she was the one who stated it on The National.)

I contacted her by email, after the interview, to ask how many UCCan ministers she understood to be athiest. You can find both of our emails posted on Gretta's website.

 

[GordW]

And I would suggest that were we "True" Christians, we'd start with the assumption that she had inadvertently misunderstood... Certainly, her work with, and association with, the Clergy Project, colours her perspective of where her colleagues lie on that complex, multi-faceted set of continuums that might describe a "god" concept.

Certainly I give her the benfit of assuimng that is a possibility. Same as I give her the benefit of assuming she honestly has a very poor understanding of UCCan history and polity rather than always assuming she is intentionally twisting it out of recognition....

 

[chansen]

She was wrong to quantify it. But nothing that we know about the beliefs of ministers in general negates the apparent reality that, just like their congregants, they are losing their faith in an actual God as well. If you think that's a bad thing, I don't understand how you can be happy that it's "only" 5-20%. That's still hundreds of ministers whose beliefs are close to Rev. Vosper's. Thay means there is somewhere between a 1 in 5 and 1 in 20 chance that your minister is among them and they don't publicize it.

 

[Delightful Life]

Well, Waterfall, there is a bit of media interest. We'll see what they make of it.

Hopefully you can get some time on the new iteration of CBCs Q ( ive just listened to a week of it an man does the new host have a wide range of guests on)

Im sure theyll be tickled to have any greepus on

Or maybe tapestries or Ideas?

 

[paradox3]

A majority of the respondents (almost 95%) affirmed a belief in God, with a large number (almost 80%) affirming a belief in a supernatural, theistic God.

It certainly is interesting that 5% of the clergy responding do not believe in God. But I am actually more surprised that 80% believe in a "supernatural theistic God".

Rejecting (or moving beyond) the classic supernatural understanding of God doesn't necessarily lead to atheism. There is a whole middle ground occupied by panentheists and so on. And I am surprised that there were not more clergypeople indentifying with some of these theologies.

Part of my disagreement with Gretta's worldview is that she doesn't seem to acknowledge that this middle ground even exists. Perhaps she sees it as merely a step on the way to atheism. Perhaps this has been her journey, I don't know.

 

[Jaebius]

It certainly is interesting that 5% of the clergy responding do not believe in God. But I am actually more surprised that 80% believe in a "supernatural theistic God".

Rejecting (or moving beyond) the classic supernatural understanding of God doesn't necessarily lead to atheism. There is a whole middle ground occupied by panentheists and so on. And I am surprised that there were not more clergypeople indentifying with some of these theologies.

Part of my disagreement with Gretta's worldview is that she doesn't seem to acknowledge that this middle ground even exists. Perhaps she sees it as merely a step on the way to atheism. Perhaps this has been her journey, I don't know.

Perhaps she gets more publicity going the atheist route.

 

[chansen]

She only gets publicity because Christians go apeshit over the word. Not believing is fine, but an atheist?!?

It makes no damn sense.

 

[Waterfall]

She only gets publicity because Christians go apeshit over the word. Not believing is fine, but an atheist?!?

It makes no damn sense.

Is it okay if someone goes to your house and preaches the gospel every week? Or your daughters school?