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http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/herbal-product-contamination-considerable-dna-tests-find-1.1959278

A DNA test of herbal products has found that most of them contained cheaper fillers and plant ingredients not listed on the label, some of which pose "serious health risks."

Researchers at the University of Guelph used DNA barcode testing to test 44 herbal products from 12 companies.DNA barcoding uses a short sequence of DNA from a standard segment in plants to identify the species rapidly and accurately.

"Product substitution occurred in 20/44 of the products tested and only 2/12 companies had products without any substitution, contamination or fillers," Steven Newmaster, an integrative biology professor at the University of Guelph and his co-authors concluded in Friday's issue of the journal BMC Medicine.

"Some of the contaminants we found pose serious health risks to consumers."
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To repeat, only 2 of the 12 companies represented in the tests did not substitute ingredients in at least some of their products.

Yeah, they're looking out for you, Kimmio. Where is your distrust, now?
 
ChemGal said:
The publics. It was quite a while ago, but I remember a petition going around against a bill. It was to regulate natural products. People were freaking out about how the government was trying to make it illegal to sell bottled water and other really exaggerated claims. Due to the outcry, it just died.

I've never looked things over carefully, but there have been studies that show even vitamins have little consistency. Herbs would likely be worse, as there are numerous factors that can effect the production of various compounds within them.

There are also situations such as this:
http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/overview/zicam
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Studies by whom though? Who endorses them? I respect that you are smart at what you do...but is it possible that you are looking too narrowly and not considering the influence that these huge industries have - out to discredit their competition to stay powerful? And they can afford to use every possible avenue - political, acedemics, marketing, media - in order to do that. Real credible naturopathic companies do not have nearly the money or power - yeah lots of them resort to gimmicks and fall unde the same banner as crap junk food would. But the good is being seriously undermined. Naturopathy does not necessarily want to become conventional medicine or get mixed up with big pharma. They want to be an independent field - but big pharma is so powerful the only way they can be recognized is the get in cahoots with big pharma.
 
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My memory of recent events is that there was a push to regulate the quality of the products. Just like food has rules and regulations and label requirements....... Food does. Drugs do. But herbal supplements do not

I think that may be in part because the sudden rise in herbal products popularity caught the regulators a bit off guard. Asleep at the switch.

But there was a big lobby against regulating these "natural " products.

Of course the companies don't want regulation. With regulation comes inspections, standards, testing, safety standards, labelling laws, .......

Don't you wonder why each item of food you buy has this huge label listing everything but the bottle of St Johns Wort you buy says nothing?

That isn't a big pharma plot They already have to deal with the laws. I suspect it is why lots of herbal products are owned by big pharma. Nice cheap way to make money with no one looking over your shoulder with those pesky rules and standards

herbal supplements , unregulated or not, are different than homeopathy. Which is of course just water . Granted consumers should want that bottled water to at least meet hygiene standards while it is pretending to be a medicine
 
Kimmio said:
Studies by whom though? Who endorses them? I respect that you are smart at what you do...but is it possible that you are looking too narrowly and not considering the influence that these huge industries have - out to discredit their competition to stay powerful?
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http://globalnews.ca/news/899174/he...ontaminants-omit-ingredients-on-labels-study/

Right now, I don't care to look for the studies.

One of the things you hear early one in biochemistry/organic chemistry is a compound used as a drug is a drug, no matter the source. Whether it's synthesized in the lab, purified from a natural source or taken along with something else - via a plant, other organism, etc. A compound can have beneficial and harmful effects regardless of the source.
 
That is a very valid point Chemgal.

People taking natural products feel somehow that they aren't taking drugs. They are, just not refined, regulated and packaged as a pill. Chew willow bark and it will still be aspirin
 
But do you know without a doubt that what is studied at the lab level and what makes it on the market is not influenced by powerful business lobby at any stage of the process - including education, and research and development. For example...lets say a lab discovers that a natural substance with little to no processing or alteration is as effective in pure form as a synthetic compound...do you know that pharma is not going to fund additional 'research' that works in their favour so that their compound is produced and marketed and the natural thing is discredited or buried in some holistic journal that never becomes mainstream knowledge? I personally do not trust that it does not happen. Big pharma has big legal and PR departments making sure they come out on top.
 
Lastpointe said:
That is a very valid point Chemgal.

People taking natural products feel somehow that they aren't taking drugs. They are, just not refined, regulated and packaged as a pill. Chew willow bark and it will still be aspirin
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I know that Willow Bark is aspirin...but why do we have to support Bayer to stay huge instead of regulating how much ASA is in willow bark tablets that require less peocessing?
 
Kimmio, many of the drugs we currently use are purified natural products. Synthesizing the correct stereoisomer (left vs. right hand) is difficult, but enzymes do a great job. Sometimes there are small, synthetic variations. This is done as sometimes these new compounds are better tolerated, and it gives a wider variety of medications so if one isn't working great for a patient, a different one may be tried.

Kimmio said:
I know that Willow Bark is aspirin...but why do we have to support Bayer to stay huge instead of regulating how much ASA is in willow bark tablets that require less peocessing?
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We don't know everything that's in willow bark. Trees take a long time to grow, and there will be variations over time of aspirin along with other things. Tree allergies are common. You said yourself, you prefer to stick with fewer chemicals. Purifying or synthesizing a compound is a great way to achieve this.
 
I don't take willow bark, or aspirin. Aspirin upsets my stomach, it is a powerful blood thinner - and anelgesic, and I want to be sure in that case how much is in it if I had to take it...I am not totally stupid. But it would be nice if there was an openness to natural drugs so they could be better regulated, and even responsible education about how much ASA is in a strip of willow bark and how to dry it/ use it - so we don't even have to buy all this stuff.
 
Kimmio said:
I want to be sure in that case how much is in it if I had to take it...I am not totally stupid. But it would be nice if there was an openness to natural drugs so they could be better regulated.
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I agree, except the issue isn't with a lack of interest in natural drugs, the issue is there are too many people who don't want them regulated, homeopathic organizations included.

Kimmio said:
even responsible education about how much ASA is in a strip of willow bark and how to dry it/ use it - so we don't even have to buy all this stuff.
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How, when there are so many factors involved? I did fungal fermentations in order to get a compound to work with in the lab. Even under lab conditions, with a relative short time frame, there would be variations in the quantity I would get. The average person isn't going to be growing a tree under lab conditions.

Even if there were a good way to control the ASA production by the tree, there are still concerns about all the other compounds. Concentration can also be a huge factor. Do get a decent dose of some compounds, it becomes impossible to consume enough of the organism.
 
ChemGal said:
Kimmio, many of the drugs we currently use are purified natural products. Synthesizing the correct stereoisomer (left vs. right hand) is difficult, but enzymes do a great job. Sometimes there are small, synthetic variations. This is done as sometimes these new compounds are better tolerated, and it gives a wider variety of medications so if one isn't working great for a patient, a different one may be tried.


We don't know everything that's in willow bark. Trees take a long time to grow, and there will be variations over time of aspirin along with other things. Tree allergies are common. You said yourself, you prefer to stick with fewer chemicals. Purifying or synthesizing a compound is a great way to achieve this.
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Well, why not find out what's in willow bark...young vs. mature trees and find out if there's a difference in how that is tolerated - and leave it alone and let people buy it/ grow it/ use it - understanding the effects of the straight up natural stuff itself - likewise with other herbs - and let naturopaths be credible in their own right for their knowledge about that?
 
ChemGal said:
I agree, except the issue isn't with a lack of interest in natural drugs, the issue is there are too many people who don't want them regulated, homeopathic organizations included.


How, when there are so many factors involved? I did fungal fermentations in order to get a compound to work with in the lab. Even under lab conditions, with a relative short time frame, there would be variations in the quantity I would get. The average person isn't going to be growing a tree under lab conditions.
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The same way they discovered ASA in the first place - from peeling bark off of a willow tree? Can't be that hard to come by. To me it sounds like you are also making excuses for your field - which is okay because all fields do that.
 
Kimmio said:
Well, why not find out what's in willow bark...young vs. mature trees and find out if there's a difference in how that is tolerated - and leave it alone and let people buy it/ grow it/ use it - understanding the effects of the straight up natural stuff itself - likewise with other herbs - and let naturopaths be credible in their own right for their knowledge about that?
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It takes years, decades sometimes to find compounds. I don't think you are fully understanding the complexity of just how many compounds exist in living things.
 
Kimmio said:
The same way they discovered ASA in the first place - from peeling bark off of a willow tree? Can't be that hard to come by. To me it sounds like you are also making excuses for your field - which is okay because all fields do that.
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But it will vary from plant to plant, branch to branch.
 
It can't be that much different if it was trees growing in the same climatic conditions. If somebody could study that and put out information about what species/ age of willow trees contain how much ASA and other chemicals - they probably have I'm sure just not in popular or well lobbied science circles (more like wilderness survival experts but who'd listen) then consumers could understand what they are taking and naturopaths have more choice in what to recommend safely, and people could have more control of their own health by what they grow in their backyard. That makes sense to me on a social health level.
 
Kimmio said:
The same way they discovered ASA in the first place - from peeling bark off of a willow tree? Can't be that hard to come by. To me it sounds like you are also making excuses for your field - which is okay because all fields do that.
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ChemGal said:
But it will vary from plant to plant, branch to branch.
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Kimmio said:
It can't be that much different if it was trees growing in the same climatic conditions....
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You don't know this. Between Chemgal and yourself, I'll take Chemgal's experience on this topic any day.

Okay, Kimmio, we should call a truce. I don't think you're stupid or I wouldn't be trying to reason with you. I'd just talk over you and ignore you. But when you come out swinging at people doing good work, like Chemgal, like my wife, and like the doctors and researchers who were trying to find compounds that would heal a child's brain and allow my son to walk again, I'm not going to take that lying down.

Stop taking shots at good people, and people will stop opposing you so vehemently.

If you want to have a go at pharmaceutical companies, get in line. But your attacks on science and scientists are completely off base, irresponsible, and just plain wrong. Your personal negative interactions with doctors are yours alone. I'm sorry you've had them, but you are not the arbiter of the usefulness of the medical profession or researchers.

I get that you don't trust people. But stop attacking them.
 
I didn't attack anybody. You're the one in attack mode attacking me. I am asking people to question what we buy and buy into, to even question the influence of big money/ lobbies in their own fields of study and work. Why villify me for that?

Is chemgal a botanist? A tree expert? No. Neither am I nor am I chemist - but I am a skeptic of the impact of industry lobby on what we learn about, buy and consume. There are people who can recognize plants in the wilderness, in different regions of the world and their uses...and I also think they have something valid to contribute in this world. So why so powerfully try to discredit before looking at what they do have to offer? Why the race for superiority in knowledge instead of different modes of knowledge...and more cooperation.
 
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