The Gender of God in the Bible, the Early Church and Today's Churches

[Mendalla]

So, back to the topic of the the thread, and perhaps skipping over the history lessons for now, has anyone ever been to a service that used ONLY feminine images for Godde? Mendalla?

My fellowship rarely uses images for God period; male, female, or otherwise . I am one of the few that is at all theistic. I don't recall any services that I have personally attended like that but I think our resident pagans (both female) did something years ago that I missed due to being on vacation or something. So I know it has been done, but I was not part of it.

 

[Seeler]

So, back to the topic of the the thread, and perhaps skipping over the history lessons for now, has anyone ever been to a service that used ONLY feminine images for Godde? Mendalla?

I don't remember any service specifically. Usualy we try to use gender neutral terms - or try for balance in male / female language. I do remember one service centered on a drama (written by one of our members) where a girl asks her mother, "Why aren't there many women in the Bible?" and as they discuss this, they are visited by many women from the Bible, and in fact a list of all the women in the Bible is read in the background as a scroll with all the names flows over the rail of the balcony and down to pool on the sanctuary floor. A memorable service. I was the one reading the scroll - I remember commenting on Jael 'I pounded a spike through his head', during a scene where Deborah appears to the girl and her mother.

 

[revjohn]

So, back to the topic of the the thread, and perhaps skipping over the history lessons for now, has anyone ever been to a service that used ONLY feminine images for Godde?

In Seminary. Yes.

That will likely be a service I never ever forget.

Not because I have anything against biblical feminine imagery but rather for a liturgy that compelled me to apologize for being born male. It was the only time I have ever refused to participate in the Lord's Supper because my discernment, using that liturgy as a lens, suggested that I was not a member of that particular body.

There was a great deal of debriefing after that service because it was probably one of the more divisive events I experienced at Seminary.

In the end there was a difference of opinion among those responsible for that particular worship. Some thought that at least now I knew how women felt and others claim that there was never an attempt to punish anyone for accidents of birth.

My response is simply to accept that anyone who would write a liturgy which seeks to punish me in particular or generally is not interested in me being part of the body so I will not push to be admitted. I won't be rude and storm out. I know how to leave where I am not wanted.

 

[BetteTheRed]

In Seminary. Yes.

That will likely be a service I never ever forget.

Not because I have anything against biblical feminine imagery but rather for a liturgy that compelled me to apologize for being born male. It was the only time I have ever refused to participate in the Lord's Supper because my discernment, using that liturgy as a lens, suggested that I was not a member of that particular body.

There was a great deal of debriefing after that service because it was probably one of the more divisive events I experienced at Seminary.

In the end there was a difference of opinion among those responsible for that particular worship. Some thought that at least now I knew how women felt and others claim that there was never an attempt to punish anyone for accidents of birth.

My response is simply to accept that anyone who would write a liturgy which seeks to punish me in particular or generally is not interested in me being part of the body so I will not push to be admitted. I won't be rude and storm out. I know how to leave where I am not wanted.

Can you imagine how a woman might feel when this is her regular experience?

 

[revjohn]

Can you imagine how a woman might feel when this is her regular experience?

I can imagine how anyone would feel if this were there regular experience.

I cannot imagine that this is anyone's regular experience.

There was, from the debriefing, either an admission that guilt simply for being born male was intentionally created and if not intentionally created at least a happy accident. Not everyone shared that intent or felt the accident was happy.

I've spent years within the Reformed tradition and I cannot say that I have ever experienced anyone being held accountable for accidents of birth. Perhaps Total Depravity smoothes that over. Men and women alike fall short of God's glory so there is no one gender which shoulders most of the blame for humanities problems. Of course a greater emphasis on the grace of God rather than the sin of humanity probably leads one to look upon God as a Redeemer and reject the preferred duty of humanity as finger-pointer.

 

[Jaebius]

So, back to the topic of the the thread, and perhaps skipping over the history lessons for now, has anyone ever been to a service that used ONLY feminine images for Godde? Mendalla?

Never have I ever. I have been to a few UCCanada services in which feminine pronouns and images were used for God. More so the former.

 

[Pinga]

I probably have, @BetteTheRed .

Would have had them at OWC which was a woman's conference

Would also have experienced them as part of service in church, given the services and ministry at our church in the 80's and 90's.

 

[Mystic]

Until recently, I observed that this thread had the highest ratio of reads per posts on this page. So lurkers are getting the message and following updates. Those who whine about the patriarchal God of Scripture need to be educated about how frequent and diverse the feminine divine imagery really is and how this impacted the power and status of ancient women. The fact that women are disinterested in this case reflects on their lack of integrity in wanting more inclusive language in worship, while being indifferent to the biblical warrant for this. Of course, the thread also raises the question (1) of the relationship between the ultimate unknowability of God and the fact that God wants a personal relationship with us and (2) of the relationship between poetic images of God and the divine reality of God's engagement with the world. Again, threads become lectures when readers choose not to engage, not because that is the wish of the thread's creator. In some aspects, I've actually gained a frash perspective on the relevant issues by condensing the biblical material for a broad audience.

 

[Pinga]

You could presume that people are "getting the message". Or you could consider it like rubber neckers on the highway or people gathering around a street brawl.

High reads do not indicate agreement or support

 

[Delightful Life]

So
it looks like perhaps historically there have been feminine images of the Christian Deity (noting that Christianity, even now, isn't a monoculture but, rather, a collection of several individual's cherry-picking of 'this is Christianity' and using it as a tribal identifier & for ease of communication...it would be impossible for Christians to get things done if they didn't assume they shared certain things in common & had to explain/reinvent the wheel every time)...

So what happened in the nonce?

Today, is there less of this? The same? More?

Alas, I, like others, suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect -- ignorance can lead one to look at one's environment and go 'This is how reality IS' and then, like a person who just has a hammer, to look at reality like there are nails everywhere...

We also have to consider perhaps another way of looking at Women & Men -- another BS -- instead of looking at Women & Men as some internal universal essence, instead look at them as Tribal Signifiers & Ease-of-Communication-Symbols...that not all men are men & not all women are women...similar to how not all Sex Workers could be considered Sex Workers and not all Poor can be considered Poor?

Beware of one's BS being violated -- that produces defensive behaviour...in this thread, if you are feeling angry or frustrated or defensive or attacked, there are reasons for that...don't let that cut you off from the honest interaction with information...such is the power of 'words', pesky things that they are :3

universal love is risen!

 

[Mystic]

Yes, if the information disclosed here had been widely known for centuries, our prayers and liturgies would be far more feminized because the very concept of the deity would have been expanded and enriched. Due to ignorance, as it is, the "bisexual" (and therefore ultimately ungendered) Yahweh is widely dismissed as anti-intellectual feminist caprice. Oh and Pinga, a wide viewership does imply meaningful engagement and, I think, educational benefit.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I can imagine how anyone would feel if this were there regular experience.

I cannot imagine that this is anyone's regular experience.

...

Really? I would say that it's my experience, even within my own congregation, some 4-6 times a year (I think it has never happened when the Rev S____ was in the pulpit, but she does do educationals and vacations, and then, sometimes, the guest minister - not always male, btw, who do this - will just get in an "Our Father" groove; with the 'right' lectionary readings from the 'right' bible, doesn't take much.) I would say that it is a very regular experience outside the UCCan, from my rather more frequent experience of the local Free Methodist than would be my preference (my mother-in-law, an unremittingly sweet woman in every way, belongs to it, at least partly because of geographic accident - it's the closest church to her new-ish home; she was Anglican when the closest church was Anglican, etc.)

 

[paradox3]

You could presume that people are "getting the message". Or you could consider it like rubber neckers on the highway or people gathering around a street brawl.

High reads do not indicate agreement or support

Nothing draws views around here like a dust-up.

 

[Delightful Life]

Can you imagine how a woman might feel when this is her regular experience?

Why don't you get together with some peeps and do a service with woman-only imagery and don't rely on other people to do it for you?

 

[BetteTheRed]

I probably could, as long as I was willing to do much of the work, which I might be; I am on the worship team, and have kinda informally challenged the Rev to do it.

 

[Pinga]

Nothing draws views around here like a dust-up.

There arent' actually that many views.

Noted that frequent updates, increases views. Why? Alerts are triggered, people come back in to see what was written.

It is why a dustup will get high views...lots of posts .

 

[chansen]

Pinga has the right idea. Lots of responses means lots of alerts that the thread has changed since the member's last visit, which leads to more views, which leads to more responses, until Luce posts something that no one can understand and everyone sits in stunned silence as the thread dies.

Also, current threads get lots of page views from search engine spiders, though I recall our software discounts those. Some forum software gets page views hopelessly wrong, which is why Linds insisted for years that his one thread as Science A Go Go had millions of views, instead of the more likely hundreds.

Yes, if the information disclosed here had been widely known for centuries, our prayers and liturgies would be far more feminized because the very concept of the deity would have been expanded and enriched. Due to ignorance, as it is, the "bisexual" (and therefore ultimately ungendered) Yahweh is widely dismissed as anti-intellectual feminist caprice. Oh and Pinga, a wide viewership does imply meaningful engagement and, I think, educational benefit.

Not from you, though. No one signed up for your course. You're lecturing more for yourself than anyone else.

I can barely summon the interest to ask again if you want to invite some of your old congregants here? Maybe some of your old students? I mean, if you're back on the lecture circuit, and you're as good as you pretend to be, then you should have people out there itching to hear from you again. It wouldn't be fair to deny them the opportunity to watch you in action one more time.

Let me know who to invite, and I'll do it. I could probably find these people on my own, but I just can't bring myself to do the legwork.

 

[Mystic]

II preached a Mother's Day sermon with the title "The Motherhood of God," that seemed well received, even by conservatives. A whole service with all feminine imagery for God could be effective and acceptable to a broad audience with adequate preparation. True, people would react negatively if they got the feeling that such a service was paganizing God or placing God within an axe-grinding feminist straight jacket. But if they realized that all the imagery stemmed from neglected biblical imagery and if they were taught in advance the edifying purpose of that imagery, I think they might embrace such a service as a fresh focus on the true God. It might be a good idea on the preceding Sunday to preach a sermon on "The Fatherhood of God." Another approach might promote well in advance a Father's Day sermon on "The Fatherhood of God" and a Mother's Day sermon on "The Motherhood of God." Then a third sermon might address the question of how genderizing God contributes to our understanding of the unknown God beyond gender categories.

 

[Luce NDs]

Considering that God seemed to be knocked out of his senses by the presence of the environmental feminine surrounding him as an aura ... is this a restraining E phraim? Perhaps cosmological casting ... or casts as they fall? Is that an alien moul-ding ...

I get a chuckle out of what people can deny. In our congregation I hear some of the more powerful women complaining about the DE masculinizing, or castration of god ... as they would then be left with no one to drive nutz ... out of the equity of the God sense falling between male and female as a drawing out force. This many be assimilated in a profusion of ways ... contrary to the single-minded approaches ... multi tasking like Job?

Again is that god force gravid ... fertile for battle and baffling? It can stir and cause dervishes ... dust bombs when the female appetite for joining in gets whetted as the female sexuality leaks out ... with some this occurs too late due to the conditioning of husbandry that insists learning such stuff is a pain ... patriarchy at it best or worst depending on the view ...

Leads eventually to myths about surgery with sardine Kahns ... just to enter more terrorism into the emotional content ... we are a brute humanity if you consider how much we'd rather not know!

Has to be another side to reality ... a kind of virtue aLL reach of stretch of the closed spot in the dot'rs view? Some lines of connection and intercourse may be discovered as a shot in the dark ... something of insole material of Cush? Thus the dots and dashes encountered in the rush of life as coded numb Eric ally as 0's and 1's or one's upon a time of binary math ... a deus of a calculating form ...