I think imagination to interpret has been employed throughout the history of religion - even as aspects of former traditions were carried into new traditions. And there is not necessarily anything wrong with that depending on to what ends we employ imagination as a means. In the case of the church forefathers they used their imaginations to stifle the voices of women instead of opening them up to include them.
Women speak in Bible
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Yes... thank you...
Would abstract concepts of women throw the fear of god into absolute men who fear abstract non-definitive cases ... like women who can bend to the prevailing conditions ...
Puts the stoic to shame during an indeterminate period ... when who knows what is stopped up or bunged --- those Dutch Kids at the dyke ...
Puts the stoic to shame during an indeterminate period ... when who knows what is stopped up or bunged --- those Dutch Kids at the dyke ...
It's possible that some men did do this, but it also appears that women weren't always "stifled" throughout history and forged ahead.
Sorry for all the links but it's far easier than writing it out.
http://godswordtowomen.org/richardriss.htm
@Waterfall Which is great - I only snanned through it so far - noticed they were mainly women of prestige, not commoners. And we don't generally learn about them in church. There is nothing from women considered 'canonical'.
Hermann
Well-Known Member
The greatest feminine voice in the Bible is that of Wisdom (Sophia/Sapienta) in the Proverbs of Solomon. In it Wisdom is the goddess who was with the male god since before the beginning of time. Goddess worship is also expressed in the Song of songs, the Song of Solomon.
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and my delights were with the sons of men.
PROVERBS 8:30,31
My Beloved spoke, and said unto me: Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
For lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
The flowers appear on the earth, the time of the singing of the birds is come, and the voice of the turtle dove is heard in our land.
SONG 2:10-12
Unfortunately, in the the patriarchal culture of Judaism, the voice of the goddess was stifled. Although Jesus seems to have embraced both the feminine and masculine aspects of spirituality, Paul of Tarsus and Martin Luther were misogynists who stifled the voice of feminine spirituality. The Roman Catholic Church was clever enough to retain the Virgin Mary as goddess, but didn't do much propagate the voice of feminine spirituality. And the voice of feminine spirituality has been sadly lacking in Protestantism.
Lately, though, things have changed. Some of the progressive or liberal Protestant denominations are, at long last, discovering the voice of the goddess. But it may be too little, too late.
Although we, Homo sapiens sapiens, have named ourselves after Sophia/Sapienta, goddess of wisdom (and doubly so!) we have done little to heed her wisdom. Neo, on different thread, nicely said what wisdom is all about. And, as Waterfall said upthread, women weren't always stifled, and forged ahead.
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and my delights were with the sons of men.
PROVERBS 8:30,31
My Beloved spoke, and said unto me: Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.
For lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;
The flowers appear on the earth, the time of the singing of the birds is come, and the voice of the turtle dove is heard in our land.
SONG 2:10-12
Unfortunately, in the the patriarchal culture of Judaism, the voice of the goddess was stifled. Although Jesus seems to have embraced both the feminine and masculine aspects of spirituality, Paul of Tarsus and Martin Luther were misogynists who stifled the voice of feminine spirituality. The Roman Catholic Church was clever enough to retain the Virgin Mary as goddess, but didn't do much propagate the voice of feminine spirituality. And the voice of feminine spirituality has been sadly lacking in Protestantism.
Lately, though, things have changed. Some of the progressive or liberal Protestant denominations are, at long last, discovering the voice of the goddess. But it may be too little, too late.
Although we, Homo sapiens sapiens, have named ourselves after Sophia/Sapienta, goddess of wisdom (and doubly so!) we have done little to heed her wisdom. Neo, on different thread, nicely said what wisdom is all about. And, as Waterfall said upthread, women weren't always stifled, and forged ahead.
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
i do hope that you and Oui are able to go on in your discussion :3
Oui
Active Member
Well, I think it takes a lot of imagination to believe that Eve was born of Adam, when we all know that really cannot be even remotely plausible. Even strictly taken metaphorically, it doesn't sit right. Life is born of females. Yet, Paul chooses to use Genesis 2:22, "The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.", to support his interpretation as to why women should submit to men,
1 Timothy 2:13 "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."
1 Corinthians 11:8-9
For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.
instead of Genesis 1:26-27, "male and female He created them."
Paul had a choice, and its very clear he wants women to be placed hierarchically below men. Using a story that absolutely no one can relate to, to support his position is beyond credulity.
I think this sadly illustrates the plain truth of the male created biblical texts, rooted in twisted fantastical male ego. We don't live in 1st century style culture anymore, but here we are, stuck with its hangover. So, how do we deal with it?
We could choose to just leave it alone, and continue to press it, warts and all, onto modern and future culture, and watch women continue to leave churches, taking their children with them.
We could choose to discern it through the lens of knowledge and research.
We could choose to truly, honestly stamp out misogyny, including biblically sanctioned varieties.
We could choose to end the hypocrisy of which the bible is on the one hand used to teach Christian freedom and a renewed relationship with the God of love, but is then used to conveniently oppress women and to have them subscribe willingly to that oppression. Probably because we just don't know any other way, and we've been repeatedly told that the male experience is the default.
We could continue to unrealistically expect women to somehow interpret the words of male authors, describing male flavoured spirituality, to express their female spirituality. I think the oppressor's tools will never dismantle the oppressor's house.
Or are we to assume that men still simply really just don't care about women's genuine spirituality?
Any other ideas out there?
1 Timothy 2:13 "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."
1 Corinthians 11:8-9
For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.
instead of Genesis 1:26-27, "male and female He created them."
Paul had a choice, and its very clear he wants women to be placed hierarchically below men. Using a story that absolutely no one can relate to, to support his position is beyond credulity.
I think this sadly illustrates the plain truth of the male created biblical texts, rooted in twisted fantastical male ego. We don't live in 1st century style culture anymore, but here we are, stuck with its hangover. So, how do we deal with it?
We could choose to just leave it alone, and continue to press it, warts and all, onto modern and future culture, and watch women continue to leave churches, taking their children with them.
We could choose to discern it through the lens of knowledge and research.
We could choose to truly, honestly stamp out misogyny, including biblically sanctioned varieties.
We could choose to end the hypocrisy of which the bible is on the one hand used to teach Christian freedom and a renewed relationship with the God of love, but is then used to conveniently oppress women and to have them subscribe willingly to that oppression. Probably because we just don't know any other way, and we've been repeatedly told that the male experience is the default.
We could continue to unrealistically expect women to somehow interpret the words of male authors, describing male flavoured spirituality, to express their female spirituality. I think the oppressor's tools will never dismantle the oppressor's house.
Or are we to assume that men still simply really just don't care about women's genuine spirituality?
Any other ideas out there?
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If a woman wasn't made from a rib ... why all the ephemeral ribbing that goes by as a' dam curse like ladies of the darkness ... Shadow? It appears this is where all wisdom is lying as lyre ... as the truth was not acceptable to the patriarchs ... but according to authority this is something that shouldn't be mentioned! So don't say such things overtly ... inertly is something else as is what's rote as satirical script. Romantics attempted to carve this is stone ... then the threshold fell for it too ...
How can we be sure that the apostle Paul even wrote the above statements when some of the books in the New Testament have been disputed as Paul having wrote them?
There's a long history of how the New Testament came to be and from what I understand "Pauline Christianity" often conflicted with the "Jewish Christians" of the day, who honored James the Just and not Paul.
One would have to filter through all the history that has been distorted along the way to get at the heart of the matter IMHO.
I think the very fact that women were created should encourage us to believe that we are indeed essential and important to humankind.
Yes we could, if one wants to leave their brains at the door.
Quite on the contrary actually Waterfall.
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
Genesis dost not say Eve was born of Adam, not sure where you came up with that
not with out the male seed , there is no birth
the Rib Taken from Adam, shows that God is a Creator , woman is not born of man but Created from God, the authority Adam has is not a tyrannical authority but an authority that is seen in Christ as groom and His church as bride , in other words mans authority is to give his very life to the well being of woman purely unconditional love.
we also see this in the Pharisees having god like powers (authority ) over its people, but Jesus sets them straight that they are abusing the authority given to them .
in this world man abuses that authority because of sin , there hearts are not pure, but in the beginning before the fall it was not so .
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Have you ever wondered why God created the animals before Adam? Maybe the heirarchy of creation has been understood in reverse. Animals, then Adam then Eve....the culmination of creation.
crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
SUPERNATURALLY - Now do you think God is a ghost, a spirit; jae? or is this an @April 1 post?
Animals were not created in God's image Waterfall. God created man to be steward over all of creation, then created woman to be man's helper.
"supernaturally" crazyheart - a form of the word supernatural, one of the definitions of which is, "can be defined as, '1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil'" - source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural
blackbelt1961
Well-Known Member
what Paul is showing here is the delegation of authority that begins with God, Paul goes on to teach that Eve was fooled by satan, but authority was in Adam , Adam new all to well what He was doing !
its like you holding a position of manager in your daily job, your given it because of your knowledge and your team is making mistakes, your Boss will come to you !, there your responsibility
i don't relate to that