Who Inhabited the World First? Satan or Humans?

[unsafe]

Neo ----your quote -----
There are demonic forces and there is an angelic being known as "Lucifer", but religion is sadly mistaken in assuming there is a personfied being known as "Satan"
ready to steal your soul for all eternity.

unsafe says ---

If you believe that there is an angelic being known as "Lucifer", ----

Then you have to believe in Satan cause Lucifer turned into Satan Neo ------Lucifer fell and became known as Satan ---

----

 

[Jaebius]

unsafe says ---
If you believe that there is an angelic being known as "Lucifer", ----
Then you have to believe in Satan cause Lucifer turned into Satan Neo ------Lucifer fell and became known as Satan ---

No, @Neo can choose to believe that there's an angelic being known as "Lucifer" and at the same time not hold that Lucifer turned into Satan. Just because you believe that Lucifer turned into Satan doesn't mean that Neo has to agree.

 

[unsafe]

Jae

You are so right ---we can choose to believe what we like ----I agree with this statement -----Neo said himself he believed that there is a Lucifer ----well Jae ---Lucifer became Satan so they are one in the same spiritual being ---one fell and became the other --so it makes great sense to me that if Neo himself says he believes in a Lucifer and then says there is no Satan that he does so out of ignorance of Scripture -----and should be shown the real truth ----which is what we True Christ--ians are called to do present the Truth and then by knowing the truth allowing the person to decide what they want to believe ---

By you condoning his ignorance to scripture is to me a hindrance to Neo knowing the Truth and then deciding what he wants to believe -----

Now that Neo sees the truth through scripture which says Jae it is truth ---then he can still say that that didn't change how he sees Lucifer as a spiritual being and Satan as non existent ----but at least he knows the 2 are connected -----and we as believers know that Satan has blinded his mind to the real truth ----


God says this ----2 Timothy 4 (ESV)
Preach the Word

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 4 - English Standard Version

 

[GeoFee]

Hi,

There are two realms of being. One is spiritual and the other is material. For example, the stories about Jesus let us understand that he is fully human (material) and fully divine (spiritual). We are wise to avoid confusion between these two realms of being in our own experience.

I welcome all spiritual perspectives on our material being. The legends and myths of all peoples permit insight regarding our spiritual being. Such insight allows us to follow our path from birth to death confidently. Confusion follows where we take the spiritual beings present in legend and myth to be material beings, that they have objective qualities or characteristics.

Plato has helped me understand that our spiritual identity may become confused with our material identity. He speaks of a soul (spiritual) imprisoned in a body (material), longing for liberation. He does not present this definitively, which is important, but theoretically. Something to be tested by experience and verified by outcomes. Saying this I hope to make clear that what I speak about in spiritual terms is indicated in my material manifestation.

I would also like to be clear that I make little distinction between the spiritual beings of my personal history and the spiritual beings of your personal history. Both of which are generally grounded in our ancestral heritage. It is important to me that I not get into quarrels about which spiritual being is superior and which is inferior, which is real and which is not.

For me all of this is eclipsed by the competitive knowledge of good and evil. Neither of which, good or evil, has any reality in the spiritual realm. There all is good. It is our appropriation of spiritual beings to serve our own purposes that creates the confusion we now experience in our common human being. A confusion leading to chaos in the material realm. That chaos being ordered by a right apprehension and rendering of the one spiritual being, made present by many names, which informs our experience.

Some, who know next to nothing about who (spirit) and what (material) I am, are certain that I am seduced and deceived by some spiritual being, considered to be the enemy of our human aspiration to a full integration of spiritual and material being as we journey from life (temporal) through death to life (eternal). These seem quite clear that they have it right and those who disagree with them have it wrong.

Forgive them as they do not know what they are doing.

George

 

[Luce NDs]

Spiritual beings can haunt physicists ... although those that believe in physical gods only can be spooked by the alternate form due to conversion of energy!

 

[Waterfall]

I don't think we *need* to fill in the blanks, but we hate not knowing (so I guess we do need to fill them in). We really do prefer any answer to no answer at all. Satan fills a hole about the source of evil in the world. It doesn't hold water, but it does hold people's attention, and that's all they want. When the real answer is probably as boring as "some people can be complete dicks," then Satan is far more interesting and something to rally against, making Satan almost a teaching aid. You don't want to be like Satan, do you, kids?

Who knows maybe evil came from star dust.



[/QUOTE]"Placed" isn't correct because we evolved here, but we have evolved to ask existential questions. We have not evolved to care about getting a bulls**t answer in response. We just need an answer. And to me, that's the unfortunate thing. I wish we cared about answers being demonstrably true, or even plausible. Especially when the bulls**t answer tries to paint the people who don't believe it as evil.[/QUOTE]

Evolved, sure, but then of course all of the "ingredients" had to be present. It could be the word Satan conjured up a deeper or more meaningful horror for the ancients, the same as how a generation far into the future might think we ancients were loyal to the leaf of a Maple despite causing some of us great grief. History becomes jaded and fossils don't always fill in the blanks necessarily.

Both believers and non believers will never deny evil exists.....unlike God. But yes, some will paint non believers as evil, others will use other words......some will just pray for eyes and hearts to be opened.....others could care less...maybe it depends where one lives.

 

[Waterfall]

Waterfall -----your quote here ------Not sure how offering fruit to Adam and Eve off the tree of Life is guarding it?

Don't know if I am reading this wrong or if your confused as to the tree Satan offered Eve the fruit from ------The tree of live was available for Adam and Eve to eat freely from ----it is the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil that God told them not to eat from -----they are to different trees

If they had of ate from the Tree of Life before Satan came on the seen they would have remained connected to God forever ----they chose not to touch the fruit of that Tree ----so Satan saw his chance to move in on the forbidden Tree ----

After Satan deceived Eve and she got Adam to eat the fruit -----God had to protect the Tree of Life as they would have remained in their fallen state forever ----That is why God had to kick them out of the Garden ---God was actually protecting them from Spiritual death forever by keeping them away from the Tree of Life ----

I could be reading your quote wrong but just wanted to clarify ------

There are some scholars that believe that the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are actually the same tree and others that believe they were separate trees.

I'd be interested to know what the reverends on this site think and why.

 

[Neo]

so it makes great sense to me that if Neo himself says he believes in a Lucifer and then says there is no Satan that he does so out of ignorance of Scripture -----and should be shown the real truth ----which is

But herein lies a flaw right at the beginning of your logic, I didn't say that there was "no Satan", I said

I don't believe in a personage called "Satan"

And again I said

Religion is sadly mistaken in assuming there is a personfied being known as "Satan"

This is what I believe is the difference between Satan, Lucifer and the devil. It's not orthodox, I admit, but since when has "what is generally accepted" been the last word on what is truth? There is always a greater truth to be seen for those that seek it. The truth lies within, not in the dead letter of scripture.

First of all, I believe that any personification of this entity we call Satan is more accurately described as our personal temptations in life, and can be overcome and therefore are not really real. How we face our personal temptations is diffferent for everyone, but in the end it's the three temptations that Jesus encountered that we can and will one day face. These last three temptations are the temptations of the physical world of the human body, the temptations of our astral world of emotional desires, and the temptations of our concrete and strictly logical mental world. As we work on perfecting our actions, ours desires and our thoughts, we work on being perfect. Even as our Father is perfect.

To understand what Satan is, in an esoteric light, we have to first understand (I believe) that our planet is a living and a breathing entity. And this entity controls the fires that keep our earth from falling apart and does so under natural law. The "Lords of Materiality" have a specific role of upholding the matter aspect of our planet and work with all the kingdoms of nature on the "involutionary arc" of nature and so create the forms which life needs to express itself. These forces therefore have their place in nature. But when these forces creep over onto the "evolutionary arc" then true evil ensues. This is, I believe, what we call Satanic forces.

Many, many people in the world today find themselves on the "evolutionary arc" of living. And this number is growing rapidly day by day. One doesn't have to be religious to work with nature, it's a natural stage for human beings that we should all embrace. When we begin to see that the lower self, the personal self in the three worlds, seems to be secondary to the God within then we have entered onto the evolutionary arc of life. This is a natural stage of "awareness" and not necessarily a religious one. One could simply be philanthropic and generally selfless and forever giving in their dealings with others to be on this path. However, in Christian parlance this stage of awareness is known as being "born again". Once we begin to sense, and later to actually "know" that the God within is actually the "cause" of the external "effect" we call our lives without, then our personalities begin to play second fiddle to how we think and act in our lives. It is then that we are truly walking the path towards spirit and away from matter. Once we begin this path of evolution then any evil or selfish action that creeps back into our lives is actually allowing involutionary forces into our now evolutionary lives. This is the "sin", I believe, what Jesus spoke of in John 15:22 when he said "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin". When He spoke the people knew which side of the arc they should be on. There was no more excuse for their selfish actions.

Lucifer, on the hand, and despite what orthodox religion says, is not the same as Satan. Lucifer is the real name for the great angel that esouls the human kingdom. His "fall" from heaven was in accordance to the Law of Cycles, which may answer why Lucifer, the "morning star", is identified with Satan, as both can be associated with the "involutionary arc" of nature.

The devil is not a person either but that rather that which is simply the opposite of good, i.e. d-evil. The devil is in all our selfish and greedy thoughts, feelings and actions.

***

Unsafe, we are as blind to truth as we want to be. I personally refuse to be chained to the dogmas of the past. Is this really a sin in your eyes?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Satan is the spirit of psychopathy. "Satan" thrives in that spirit - he was not here first, he is not how humans were intended to be toward one another and the rest of the planet, and he's only temporary.

Christ is the alpha and omega, who is the Spirit of Life Eternal, for humanity, as shown to us by Jesus.

 

[Ichthys]

Since Satan does not exist, the obvious answer is humans.

 

[unsafe]

Waterfall ----your quote -----There are some scholars that believe that the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are actually the same tree and others that believe they were separate trees

Here is the thing ---it all comes down to who you and the reverends believe ---human scholars ---or God's word -----you choose ----

Genesis 2:9 gives us the answer -----what we believe is up to us ----

Genesis 2:8-9 (ERV)
8 Then the Lord God planted a garden in the East, in a place named Eden. He put the man he made in that garden. 9 Then the Lord God caused all the beautiful trees that were good for food to grow in the garden. In the middle of the garden, he put the tree of life and the tree that gives knowledge about good and evil.

Here is God's Word Version as well -----The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil grew in the middle of the garden.

Here we see 2 separate trees in both scriptures ----both trees in the middle of the garden but separate trees -----one free to eat from --one forbidden to eat from ----

 

[Luce NDs]

It all depends on what you believe fell from 'out there' ... light or dark words inscribed within a dark cave that became part of the scull in place ... in some traditions this is read as sculling place ... a dark pool in deed!

 

[unsafe]

Neo ---

What you believe now is your belief ---you will know if your belief is the right belief when you die ----so good luck with your belief ------

I leave you with this song ---

Hank Williams III- Satan is real

 

[Neo]

Neo ---

What you believe now is your belief ---you will know if your belief is the right belief when you die ----so good luck with your belief ------

I leave you with this song ---

Hank Williams III- Satan is real

This is your only reply to my post? I suppose it's better than your condemnation of me into hell because I don't believe the dead letter of the Bible like you do.

Also, I got about 20 seconds in that song and had to shut it down. You actually listen to garbage like that? Uhggg...

 

[JRT]

Here is the thing ---it all comes down to who you and the reverends believe ---human scholars ---or God's word -----you choose ----

The Bible as a human creation is a legitimate object of human scholarship. I approach the Bible like a prospector would approach his claim. I am prepared to spend a lot of time and effort searching for the shining nuggets of wisdom and insight but I am also prepared to have to shift a lot of rubble in order to find them.

 

[Luce NDs]

The Bible as a human creation is a legitimate object of human scholarship. I approach the Bible like a prospector would approach his claim. I am prepared to spend a lot of time and effort searching for the shining nuggets of wisdom and insight but I am also prepared to have to shift a lot of rubble in order to find them.

Thus the legend of the dark pearl of understanding and brutes state that's just chitty ... bang, bang and thou rests!

 

[Luce NDs]

This is your only reply to my post? I suppose it's better than your condemnation of me into hell because I don't believe the dead letter of the Bible like you do.

Also, I got about 20 seconds in that song and had to shut it down. You actually listen to garbage like that? Uhggg...

Songs on self examination ... the dark Mire thingy ... like the great mother taking a step back to bug your thoughts ... in some traditions women if taking more than two back steps were considered regressive ... from then on the Great Mother observed us from out there ... over de shoulder thingy!

 

[chansen]

The Bible as a human creation is a legitimate object of human scholarship. I approach the Bible like a prospector would approach his claim. I am prepared to spend a lot of time and effort searching for the shining nuggets of wisdom and insight but I am also prepared to have to shift a lot of rubble in order to find them.

I think that's a pretty accurate description.

Or maybe it's more like the tar sands. There is good stuff in there, but the energy it takes to extract it, and the damage it causes, make the endeavour questionable.

 

[Luce NDs]

I think that's a pretty accurate description.

Or maybe it's more like the tar sands. There is good stuff in there, but the energy it takes to extract it, and the damage it causes, make the endeavour questionable.

If one works continuously at it ... may detract you from having opinion about doing something alternate ... emote 'n?

You wish? Down grade it could be a racine thought --- Sisyphus !

Tis best to be cognizant about myths ... so many modern words extracted from them ... like what can evolve from Cloes? ... the wryest sort ... if you can catch IDE ...

 

[Waterfall]

Since Satan does not exist, the obvious answer is humans.

I suppose whether one believes in the biblical creation story or not (mythical or literal), there is a story about how humans developed an evil side and most cultures/religions have a similar story. Did we evolve as an evil entity that became influenced by goodness, or maybe we evolved as mostly good and acquired evil tendencies or perhaps we were we capable of both good and evil from the get go? Or if evil comes from outside of us...what would have been that influence?