when a homily makes the news....
- Thread starter GordW
- Start date
Welcome to Wondercafe2!
A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!
I have a terrible migraine. I’m leaving and will probably not bother with wondercafe any more. It’s just more stress.
chansen
Had a point all along
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Stress? When facts are stressful to your point of view, reconsider your point of view.
No one is arguing for a wide open door. There needs to be a more transparent process. But the answer isn't rounding up children, separating them from their parents, building a goddamn concentration camp at Guantanamo, accusing people of being illegal because they speak Spanish, and just generally behaving like a bunch of henchmen.
There has to be a more civilized response that is more proportionate to the crime of fleeing their homeland and coming to the US, which has historically billed itself as welcoming the tired, the poor and the huddled masses. And now it says GTFO to anyone who looks different.
No one is arguing for a wide open door. There needs to be a more transparent process. But the answer isn't rounding up children, separating them from their parents, building a goddamn concentration camp at Guantanamo, accusing people of being illegal because they speak Spanish, and just generally behaving like a bunch of henchmen.
There has to be a more civilized response that is more proportionate to the crime of fleeing their homeland and coming to the US, which has historically billed itself as welcoming the tired, the poor and the huddled masses. And now it says GTFO to anyone who looks different.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Oh dear. People whom we barely know who must announce their flouncing off make me giggle.
I couldn’t flounce iif my life depended on it. Yes, the whole world needs to change so that people can live safely in their homes or in countries of their choosing, but that’s a tall order right now.
It's also international law that refugees cannot be turned away from the border if they are being persecuted or their lives are in danger.
Trump is applying the teaching of Jesus and the NT about justice, and you are warping Jesus as the God of Woke. Tesus carefully distinguishes justice from mercy and would side with Trump's enforcement of the Law in the interests of border security:
"...You have neglected the weightier matters of the Law: JUSTICE, mercy, and faith."
Peter knew Jesus' teaching much better than you; and he supported political leaders who try to uphold the law and punish violators of that law to protect society:
'13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men (1 Peter 2:13-15)."
Paul, of course, agrees with Peter:
"Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience (Romans 13:3-5)."
Note that the leaders envisaged here are enforcing laws for general social wellbeing, just as Trump is. That's why we reelected Trump.
"...You have neglected the weightier matters of the Law: JUSTICE, mercy, and faith."
Peter knew Jesus' teaching much better than you; and he supported political leaders who try to uphold the law and punish violators of that law to protect society:
'13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, 14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. 15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men (1 Peter 2:13-15)."
Paul, of course, agrees with Peter:
"Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience (Romans 13:3-5)."
Note that the leaders envisaged here are enforcing laws for general social wellbeing, just as Trump is. That's why we reelected Trump.
jimkenney12
Well-Known Member
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
The law is not being applied for general social well being
Jesus, Peter, and Paul focus on the intention of the law--to serve justice for the majority in the interests of the common good. As usual, you distort this purpose by forgetting that the laws to protect the border are intended to protect our citizens from unknown threats and to provide just access to citizenship with one set of rules that apply to all. This means that consistency and therefore justice requires both criminals and the innocent must be held to the same standard.
Jaebius
Canadian in Korea
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Jesus emphasized love, compassion, and humility in his teachings. Justice must be tempered with mercy and understanding. The passages you mentioned remind us of the need for compassion and empathy in our actions
Jaebius
Canadian in Korea
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Then how can any of us be saved - we've all broken God's Law. On a more human, practical level, it means I can't jaywalk to go help someone who needs assistance. It means a family member can't speed on the highway to get their loved one to the hospital. Are you sure you want to hold to that statement?
We are saved by grace. which is unmerited favor eith no sense of entitlement, which means justice is not applied to us for our sin. By contrast, illegal aliens are violating the law to serve their own selfish agenda, assuming a sense of entitlement as if the laws that apply to legal immigrants don't apply to them.
I have never been confronted by a cop simply for jaywalking, even when I'm not doing so to help someone. The law is enforced in a commonsense way.
The law does not punish such emergency driving. If a cop stops such a person for speeding and learns the reason why, that cop will take the lead to help the driver speed to the hospital. The law is intended to serve the best interests and safety of society; and it is that applicatoin of the law that Jesus, Peter, and Paul have in mind.
Last edited:
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
When I spent time in Arizona, every winter for a few weeks for a few years, with my best friend, who snowbirded down there, I was always aware of the overwhelming presence of ICE, everywhere. We were always getting stopped and the truck searched. Two white women with Ontario plates driving around in an Avalanche. They were always surprised at the sheer volume of painting supplies (easels, paints, brushes, canvases) with which we travelled.
Wide open door, really?
So I spend another two minutes doing a bit of basic research, and find this: The Cost of Immigration Enforcement and Border Security to discover the ICE spending has increased year after year. So, to me, I question the logic of blaming any government when all them have continuously increased ICE's budget.
So, to me, this looks like scapegoating, and diverting attention from important things, like air water and soil quality, like socio-economic disparities that are beginning to look French Revolution-ish, and climate change, which is going to bite our grandchildren, all of them, in the ass. And the naked Emperor is still making stupid proclamations.
Last edited:
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
It also implies that all social/cultural laws are valid. What about laws supporting segregation and slavery? What about those that remove women's control of their own bodies? Where does prostitution fit? It's been illegal fairly often over the millennia, yet Jesus seemed to have a specific affinity for prostitutes (and tax collectors, viewed culturally as collaborators who also had a reputation for adding their own vig to the tab).
This argument seems very weak. I cannot conclude other than that Jesus is overwhelmingly on the side of love of all beings, especially humans, but without any care for boundaries. Why else would Jesus emphasize the race/culture of the hated Samaritans in his story of neighbour?
WhyCzar
Connect The Dots
- Pronouns
- They/Them/Their
If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?
Alleged serial killer, illegal immigrant in Texas may be linked to 6 more deaths, lawsuits claim
A Kenyan man living in the U.S. illegally already charged in the deaths of 12 elderly women may be behind the killings of six other elderly people, according to to a set of lawsuits filed Tuesday.
www.foxnews.com
Illegal immigrant slapped with 4 life sentences for brutal murders
A Salvadoran serial killer who was in the U.S. illegally was slapped with consecutive life sentences after he admitted to four Nevada murders
nypost.com
Jaebius
Canadian in Korea
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Right. God's mercy on us triumphs over justice.
But by what you said earlier, no one should ever jaywalk in order to go help someone because the law is against jaywalking.
Okay, but by what you said earlier, no one should ever rush a loved one to the hospital because the law is against speeding.
This I can agree with. That said, Jesus, Peter, and Paul were all more concerned with compassion than they were with enforcing the law for the sake of the law
Jaebius
Canadian in Korea
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Love this! Brilliantly said Bette.
"Mercy triumphs over judgment." - James 2:13b (ESV)