What is Worship?
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crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
I wold hope that worship would be all of these but I also hope that worship would make
me laugh, touch my soul, and let me leave the worship with a small truth, as simple
as God loves me .
me laugh, touch my soul, and let me leave the worship with a small truth, as simple
as God loves me .
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm not sure those are even mutually exclusive. They are defining rather different aspects of worship.
Liturgy is the structure of worship so technically all worship is liturgical, it's a question of how structured is that liturgy.
Experiential is about how you do worship, what worship does for those participating. It can support the educational function of worship, but can also do more.
Educational is about the purpose of worship, about using it to convey knowledge.
So, here's my take on worship as of the beginning of my 53rd year of life. All subject to change as I get older and crankier.
Worship is equal parts education (it conveys ideas about the church's beliefs), celebration (it is about holding up and honouring the church's values and beliefs, whatever they may be), and community (it is about bringing the community together for the other two purposes). Good worship is an experience, you come away feeling something has happened and that you have gained something from being there (so experiential is part of it). Liturgy, then, is what puts it all together. It may be very structured and formal with lots of fiddly bits or very loose and informal. As always, I think the middle ground is best. Too formal and the experience may be lost as people focus more on the structure than on the experience. Too informal and you can meander and lose your way, diffusing the experience. There needs to be some structure, but there also needs to be some room to breath and flow.
You'll note no mention of "worshipping God" in there. That's me being UU. Not all of us believe in God and God is often not mentioned at all in our worship. It fall under the celebration (holding up and honouring the church's beliefs and values) part for me. If you're a Christian church then you will be holding up and honouring God and celebrating your faith in God among other things (mostly, there are exceptions as we know).
Liturgy is the structure of worship so technically all worship is liturgical, it's a question of how structured is that liturgy.
Experiential is about how you do worship, what worship does for those participating. It can support the educational function of worship, but can also do more.
Educational is about the purpose of worship, about using it to convey knowledge.
So, here's my take on worship as of the beginning of my 53rd year of life. All subject to change as I get older and crankier.
Worship is equal parts education (it conveys ideas about the church's beliefs), celebration (it is about holding up and honouring the church's values and beliefs, whatever they may be), and community (it is about bringing the community together for the other two purposes). Good worship is an experience, you come away feeling something has happened and that you have gained something from being there (so experiential is part of it). Liturgy, then, is what puts it all together. It may be very structured and formal with lots of fiddly bits or very loose and informal. As always, I think the middle ground is best. Too formal and the experience may be lost as people focus more on the structure than on the experience. Too informal and you can meander and lose your way, diffusing the experience. There needs to be some structure, but there also needs to be some room to breath and flow.
You'll note no mention of "worshipping God" in there. That's me being UU. Not all of us believe in God and God is often not mentioned at all in our worship. It fall under the celebration (holding up and honouring the church's beliefs and values) part for me. If you're a Christian church then you will be holding up and honouring God and celebrating your faith in God among other things (mostly, there are exceptions as we know).
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Glad I saved this from way back when.
Originally was the OP of a thread called Worship for MadMonk in the early days of WonderCafe.ca
RevJohn on Worship
MadMonk said he would be interested in hearing my take on worship, which is more invitation that I really need to chip in my two cents worth.
Worship is the act of creature giving reverence to Creator. The Greek verb proskuneo which is the dominant Greek word that is translated into the English “Worship” carries this interesting definition: a dog licking his master’s hand.
Proskuneo also includes doing reverence to and crouching in homage. I want to run with the definition that includes the dog because it has a proverbial advantage. We have heard the proverb about ingratitude or “biting the hand that feeds” that proverb is the antithesis of worship.
Let me explain with some help from our canine friends. Dogs are pack animals but not all animals are able to participate in the hunt so the hunters wolf down more food than they need to satisfy their hunger. They engorge themselves because that is how they carry the excess back to the rest of the pack. When they get home the pups gather around and lick their mouths, which helps to trigger the vomit reflex and the pups then get their share. Incidentally, this is why puppies are very intent on licking their master’s face. They aren’t giving kisses they are trying to get you to hurl so they can share in your most recent meal.
As the dog matures it recognizes that you do not feed it in a genuinely canine fashion. You have hands which are perfectly suited for the task of carrying their food to them so when your dog is excited, particularly after you have been out it will lick your hand in an attempt to get something good from you. Still, if you allow it they will quickly move from your hand to your mouth because that is what they understand by instinct will give them the treat they are looking for.
Unless you starve your dogs they will be content with some physical attention.
We worship because we have traditionally understood that the Lord our God is also our provider. Every good and perfect gift comes from God’s outstretched hand in some fashion. We engage in proskuneo (worship) when we lick God’s hand and we are rewarded as God provides our daily bread and maybe a scratch behind our ears or a good vigorous belly rub.
Our dogs thrill at that contact and we who worship experience the same kind of thrill at having God’s attention directed to us. In our excitement we fawn over God, licking his hands (worshipping) as a sign that every good and perfect gift we have received, will receive or hope to receive must come from those hands.
From this perspective worship is not simply about what we can get God to bring up for us, nor is it about fawning and falling all over ourselves in God’s presence. It is the sheer joy of reunion and the ecstasy of togetherness.
True worship for the Christian then is pretty much the same thing though we communicate it in a slightly different way. We participate in the sheer joy of reunion, not just God and ourselves coming together again but rather the whole of the pack. God, our brothers, and sisters and ourselves come together and rejoice that the gathering has happened. We acknowledge God has come to us and we are mindful that every good and perfect gift that we possess has come to us through God’s hands
Puppies do not think that the food their parents bring up for them is a miracle. It is, as a matter of fact, most natural for a puppy to take nourishment from its mother. First, it suckles and then after it is weaned it starts with pre-chewed and partially pre-digested morsels until it has the ability to participate in the hunt.
We do not think that the bulk of God’s providential love is miraculous either. It is, as a matter of fact, most natural for us to take our nourishment from the labour and gifts of others, first from breast or bottle, then from jars, until we are big enough to track down our own meals from fridge or pantry.
Our Spiritual nurture also follows a natural path. We are read to from scripture until we are able to read it for ourselves or set it to music and sing it with the congregation.
In all of this, we remember, and we acknowledge that everything that we have need of is delivered to us via the hand of God.
The family dog also has another behaviour that we capture in the use of proskuneo and that is the crouch. In a clearly defined pack, the Alpha is most notable by its posture (this is another reason why posture is so important in dog shows—it gives the appearance of a commanding presence) all dogs but the alphas exhibit a bit of a slouch while moving and will crouch slightly when still. The Alpha is always the biggest looking dog. We who are not Alphas or, in the faith relationship, who are not God do not share in a godly posture. We are smaller than God. Hence we bow our heads in prayer. When we bow our heads we slump our shoulders and present as shorter than we truly are
The final lesson from the family dog that is not captured in proskuneo is rolling belly up. This is a significant behaviour in that it is exceedingly rare even within an established pack. A failed challenge of the Alpha ends when the challenger prostrates itself. In that defenseless position, the upper neck is vulnerable to the jaws of the Alpha but a bite is not usually lethal, the bones of the spine offer some protection to the vulnerable throat.
When a dog rolls over onto its back that is a different story altogether. The dog’s belly is exceedingly vulnerable and a single bite can effectively disembowel. The only time a dog will engage in this behaviour is when they trust that the pack member they roll over for will not actually harm them. Yes, they are probably hoping they will get a good belly rub but if they didn’t trust you there is no way you would put your hand on their belly and expect to keep it safe.
Our prayers of confession reflect this behaviour. We confess our faults, failures, sins, and short-comings. Exposing our most vulnerable side to our God all the while trusting that we will not feel savage jaws tear out our throat or spread our guts out all over the place. When God’s grace flows it hits us with all the warmth and pleasure that we see on our dog’s face as he endures his belly rub.
Another Greek verb Therapeuo is often translated as “to heal” but it also has a definition of “to wait upon menially” and I think that particular definition is a lock for us with respect to worship. We come to lick God’s hand as thanks for God’s providence, prostrate ourselves before him as an indication of his strength as the leader, go belly up in his presence as an indicator of our trust but we also come to join with God in the service of the community of God’s children. We bring ourselves to the table and offer ourselves to God, promising to be his hands and feet.
In our worship, we graciously thank God for all that God has given and done for us we also make that gratitude known by submitting our skills and talents and allowing them to be deployed in whichever manner best serves the community of faith and the children of God in the world.
Formally we worship God corporately (The Sunday Worship Service) whereas we informally worship God individually (The Christian Life) whenever we are not engaged in corporate worship. In that respect, it is relationship/lifestyle rather than obligation/time constraint.
Originally was the OP of a thread called Worship for MadMonk in the early days of WonderCafe.ca
RevJohn on Worship
MadMonk said he would be interested in hearing my take on worship, which is more invitation that I really need to chip in my two cents worth.
Worship is the act of creature giving reverence to Creator. The Greek verb proskuneo which is the dominant Greek word that is translated into the English “Worship” carries this interesting definition: a dog licking his master’s hand.
Proskuneo also includes doing reverence to and crouching in homage. I want to run with the definition that includes the dog because it has a proverbial advantage. We have heard the proverb about ingratitude or “biting the hand that feeds” that proverb is the antithesis of worship.
Let me explain with some help from our canine friends. Dogs are pack animals but not all animals are able to participate in the hunt so the hunters wolf down more food than they need to satisfy their hunger. They engorge themselves because that is how they carry the excess back to the rest of the pack. When they get home the pups gather around and lick their mouths, which helps to trigger the vomit reflex and the pups then get their share. Incidentally, this is why puppies are very intent on licking their master’s face. They aren’t giving kisses they are trying to get you to hurl so they can share in your most recent meal.
As the dog matures it recognizes that you do not feed it in a genuinely canine fashion. You have hands which are perfectly suited for the task of carrying their food to them so when your dog is excited, particularly after you have been out it will lick your hand in an attempt to get something good from you. Still, if you allow it they will quickly move from your hand to your mouth because that is what they understand by instinct will give them the treat they are looking for.
Unless you starve your dogs they will be content with some physical attention.
We worship because we have traditionally understood that the Lord our God is also our provider. Every good and perfect gift comes from God’s outstretched hand in some fashion. We engage in proskuneo (worship) when we lick God’s hand and we are rewarded as God provides our daily bread and maybe a scratch behind our ears or a good vigorous belly rub.
Our dogs thrill at that contact and we who worship experience the same kind of thrill at having God’s attention directed to us. In our excitement we fawn over God, licking his hands (worshipping) as a sign that every good and perfect gift we have received, will receive or hope to receive must come from those hands.
From this perspective worship is not simply about what we can get God to bring up for us, nor is it about fawning and falling all over ourselves in God’s presence. It is the sheer joy of reunion and the ecstasy of togetherness.
True worship for the Christian then is pretty much the same thing though we communicate it in a slightly different way. We participate in the sheer joy of reunion, not just God and ourselves coming together again but rather the whole of the pack. God, our brothers, and sisters and ourselves come together and rejoice that the gathering has happened. We acknowledge God has come to us and we are mindful that every good and perfect gift that we possess has come to us through God’s hands
Puppies do not think that the food their parents bring up for them is a miracle. It is, as a matter of fact, most natural for a puppy to take nourishment from its mother. First, it suckles and then after it is weaned it starts with pre-chewed and partially pre-digested morsels until it has the ability to participate in the hunt.
We do not think that the bulk of God’s providential love is miraculous either. It is, as a matter of fact, most natural for us to take our nourishment from the labour and gifts of others, first from breast or bottle, then from jars, until we are big enough to track down our own meals from fridge or pantry.
Our Spiritual nurture also follows a natural path. We are read to from scripture until we are able to read it for ourselves or set it to music and sing it with the congregation.
In all of this, we remember, and we acknowledge that everything that we have need of is delivered to us via the hand of God.
The family dog also has another behaviour that we capture in the use of proskuneo and that is the crouch. In a clearly defined pack, the Alpha is most notable by its posture (this is another reason why posture is so important in dog shows—it gives the appearance of a commanding presence) all dogs but the alphas exhibit a bit of a slouch while moving and will crouch slightly when still. The Alpha is always the biggest looking dog. We who are not Alphas or, in the faith relationship, who are not God do not share in a godly posture. We are smaller than God. Hence we bow our heads in prayer. When we bow our heads we slump our shoulders and present as shorter than we truly are
The final lesson from the family dog that is not captured in proskuneo is rolling belly up. This is a significant behaviour in that it is exceedingly rare even within an established pack. A failed challenge of the Alpha ends when the challenger prostrates itself. In that defenseless position, the upper neck is vulnerable to the jaws of the Alpha but a bite is not usually lethal, the bones of the spine offer some protection to the vulnerable throat.
When a dog rolls over onto its back that is a different story altogether. The dog’s belly is exceedingly vulnerable and a single bite can effectively disembowel. The only time a dog will engage in this behaviour is when they trust that the pack member they roll over for will not actually harm them. Yes, they are probably hoping they will get a good belly rub but if they didn’t trust you there is no way you would put your hand on their belly and expect to keep it safe.
Our prayers of confession reflect this behaviour. We confess our faults, failures, sins, and short-comings. Exposing our most vulnerable side to our God all the while trusting that we will not feel savage jaws tear out our throat or spread our guts out all over the place. When God’s grace flows it hits us with all the warmth and pleasure that we see on our dog’s face as he endures his belly rub.
Another Greek verb Therapeuo is often translated as “to heal” but it also has a definition of “to wait upon menially” and I think that particular definition is a lock for us with respect to worship. We come to lick God’s hand as thanks for God’s providence, prostrate ourselves before him as an indication of his strength as the leader, go belly up in his presence as an indicator of our trust but we also come to join with God in the service of the community of God’s children. We bring ourselves to the table and offer ourselves to God, promising to be his hands and feet.
In our worship, we graciously thank God for all that God has given and done for us we also make that gratitude known by submitting our skills and talents and allowing them to be deployed in whichever manner best serves the community of faith and the children of God in the world.
Formally we worship God corporately (The Sunday Worship Service) whereas we informally worship God individually (The Christian Life) whenever we are not engaged in corporate worship. In that respect, it is relationship/lifestyle rather than obligation/time constraint.
Delightful Life
M&M, Cascadian Lovers
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
etymology of the fossil poem Worship
worship | Origin and meaning of worship by Online Etymology Dictionary
worship | Origin and meaning of worship by Online Etymology Dictionary
This can come to mind as enigma? Tis presently dark and flowing ... like the Nash waak ... the Micmac river on which I was raised ... some relation to Nashville and blues in obtuse expression ... as you can't say anything about pale authorities ... Bucket Listings?
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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- She/Her/Her
To me, "worship" is a communal reaction to Awe/Love in some way. We had the most awesome service last Sunday that sort of demonstrates that balance of "love/awe" to me. "Love" being a feeling of pleasure in fellowship and interaction and eye contact. Our "Call to Gather" was a liturgy read by a narrator (the minister in this case) against several mimed/tableau scenarios: i) a lonely/dislocated/new to town person, ii) a grieving/shattered pained person, iii) an overburdened, under-assisted "let's fix everything" everyperson. 15 minutes later, at the conclusion of "children's time", we all did a recital of "The Spirit in You Greets the Spirit in Me" liturgy with 3 separate people, deliberately seeking out those we didn't know well. We concluded with a really special communion service involving 5 different tables with 5 different 'themes'. As a whole, it was a very cool, very spiritually-moving, life-enhancing liturgy. (I have to tell you, from a a minister/worship organizer POV, it was a bit challenging, lol, and I missed some of the beauty of it, being partially involved in the production, but I have heard nothing but "wows" all week.) It was also an example of an attempt to reach people at a number of different levels through a number of different senses.
God gave a sign ... then said it was not to be worshipped as it was just an icon of something incarnate ... appearing as isn't ... according to the Celtic understanding of a hole (ron/don) in time can one have a hole in something intangible? That's of essence something beyond physical reality ... a mental complex-ite ... if alloyed? Few would have pondered it as some filmy ...
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I love this definition. I may use it if/when I get back involved with worship again.
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Jobam said:
Answering more directly I think worship can incorporate the educational, should be experiential, involves the liturgical but does not necessarily have to do either.
Jobam said:
Worship: In scripture it is most frequently a tanslation of the Hebrew "shachah" meaning, to depress, i.e. prostrate (especially reflexive, in homage to royalty or God):—bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship. And the Greek "proskyneo" meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):—worship.
I think I cover that well enough in the post hauled out of obscurity and used as my initial response.
Educational: Not a word that appears directly in scripture. So I am going to substitute Educational with Edify. Edify is the translation of the Greek "oikodome' meaning (the act of) building, building up. Whenever worship turns educational it should be for the purpose of building up. Building up what? That becomes an interesting question. If the point of Christian worship, seen above, is to direct our attention towards God then does any education/edification detract from that attention? Does an act originally intended to give something to God logically remain that act if, the intention then becomes giving something to the worshipper?
I think it might.
Not that either are bad things in and of themselves. They may not be mutually exclusive events but I wonder how easy/difficult it is to maintain the balance.
Liturgical: This word is rooted in the Greek "leitourgia' meaning public function (as priest ("liturgy") or almsgiver):--ministration(-try), service. In this day and age the necessity of a "priest" is routinely challenged. Part of that might be a reaction to "institution" or the suggestion of "heirarchy" which can be discussed elsewhere. I think that by leaving the liturgical in the domain of the priestly what remains is that liturgy is deliberate, planned act rather than random action. Which doesn't mean that worship cannot happen randomly. We are not stuck in an either/or mode we can have a both/and solution. Reluctance to priestly presidency might also be somewhat abated if we recall one of the purposes of the Reformation was to reaffirm the priesthood of all believers. All are priests. Some priests have dedicated themselves to liturgical forms and leadership
At any rate I don't see liturgy as the potential impediment to worship that education/edification could be.
Experiential: Based on the Hebrew word "raah" meaning to see, literally or figuratively (in numerous applications, direct and implied, transitive, intransitive and causative):—advise self, appear, approve, behold, certainly, consider, discern, (make to) enjoy, have experience, gaze, take heed, indeed, joyfully, lo, look (on, one another, one on another, one upon another, out, up, upon), mark, meet, be near, perceive, present, provide, regard, (have) respect, (fore-, cause to, let) see(-r, -m, one another), shew (self), sight of others, (e-) spy, stare, surely, think, view, visions. And the Greek word "dokime" meaning test (abstractly or concretely); by implication, trustiness:—experience(-riment), proof, trial.
I think that like educational, experiential has the potential to conflict with worship. Particularly since it moves emphasis from what is offered to that being worshipped to what is felt by the worshipper. Like education/edification I don't think that experiential and worship are mutually exclusive but they seem to be harder to hold in balance.
This may explain the Reformational step away from "high" liturgical forms and sacraments which do not make Christ the central actor.
Like education/edification I think that experiential can benefit those seeking to worship. Since worship is outward and experience and education are inward I don't think both can happen simultaneously.
Something one should know ... albeit some say not!
Do you sense there's still something missing from this general coverage of an integral respect ... for all-that-is?
Some will still eliminate others just because of the freedom of wile ... which hasn't been well thought over and what rises from that deep auguring ...
Sort of like painful points rising from the earth ... rocky outcroppings? From there evidence of critters from the past ... done gone ...
The observation (science) of reading into stuff like stones ... one might see moving revelations that make up sub conscious Ness ... a shadowy item! The darker pool in the backside of the Levite soul?
RL Stevenson wrote a poem about this wee shadow ... rife for digging up tomorrow ... groundhog Dei?
The observation (science) of reading into stuff like stones ... one might see moving revelations that make up sub conscious Ness ... a shadowy item! The darker pool in the backside of the Levite soul?
RL Stevenson wrote a poem about this wee shadow ... rife for digging up tomorrow ... groundhog Dei?
revjohn
Well-Known Member
Luce NDs said:
There is always something missing. Which probably explains the tension and the struggle. Roads manage to be two way we who travel upon them cannot manage both ways simultaneously. On the globe we could travel so far west that we arrive at our starting point from the east. That wouldn't mean that we have ever moved east.
Elimination happens. I'm more concerned about the spirit that wilfully eliminates rather than circumstances which may make it necessary. Paul tried to be all things to all people but never all at the one time. Context drove his efforts.
crazyheart
Rest In Peace: tomorrow,tomorrow
And, remember, some folk learn by hearing, some by seeing, some by doing.
I hope these are incorporated in all our worships. All though, I know they are not.
I hope these are incorporated in all our worships. All though, I know they are not.
Some people are quite institutional about their way ... ground nutz?