What is a Miracle?

[paradox3]

Some 'loving church lady' visited my just widowed daughter. When she left my three year old grandson was weeping on the back step. She told him he shouldn't be crying, he should be happy. God loved his daddy so much that he took him to live in Heaven with him and Jesus. The kid replied that he had no right to do that because he wanted his dad right here!

Not the brightest of church ladies if you ask me. I don't think anyone should ever say anything like this unless they are certain such an outlook is shared.

With a passing at the end of a long life, I am okay with the better place idea. But again I don't think it should be stated unless you know such a sentiment will be welcomed.

 

[Mendalla]

Some 'loving church lady' visited my just widowed daughter. When she left my three year old grandson was weeping on the back step. She told him he shouldn't be crying, he should be happy. God loved his daddy so much that he took him to live in Heaven with him and Jesus. The kid replied that he had no right to do that because he wanted his dad right here!

Talk about saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.

 

[Mendalla]

Heard a sermon about this many moons ago. Rev Sylvia Dunstan (writer of several hymns in VU) argued that this life on earth is part of eternal life and needs to be treated as such. Jesus has come that we might have eternal life now and forever, she said.

I don't specifically recall abundant life being mentioned but it might have been.

Still, I think, carries the risk of people using it to justify waiting or putting things off. If we have forever, why try to make today count?

 

[paradox3]

Still, I think, carries the risk of people using it to justify waiting or putting things off. If we have forever, why try to make today count?

This raises an interesting question. When "forever" begins what will stop us from continuing to put everything off in this endless future?

 

[Redbaron]

That in turn raises the question, what will there be to put off?

 

[Mendalla]

This raises an interesting question. When "forever" begins what will stop us from continuing to put everything off in this endless future?

I wonder, too. Is there some sudden surge of mystical creativity? "Carpe diem," as Horace said. Here's a translation of the whole poem that famous phrase comes from.

Ask not—we cannot know—what end the gods have set for you, for me; nor attempt the Babylonian reckonings Leuconoë. How much better to endure whatever comes, whether Jupiter grants us additional winters or whether this is our last, which now wears out the Tuscan Sea upon the barrier of the cliffs! Be wise, strain the wine; and since life is brief, prune back far-reaching hopes! Even while we speak, envious time has passed: pluck the day, putting as little trust as possible in tomorrow!

 

[blackbelt1961]

This raises an interesting question. When "forever" begins what will stop us from continuing to put everything off in this endless future?

Well for one I don't know of anybody who has put everything off, I know those who puts certain things off, only to learn that procrastination is not always the best decision.

This life we live is a lesson to us to be carried on to eternity.

 

[DaisyJane]

Talk about saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.

That is beyond "wrong". That is spiritual cruelty and according to John Swinton's work would be a theodicy that crosses into evil. I agree.

 

[DaisyJane]

In the past week I have had to deal with three deaths in my immediate "circle". Add to that, yesterday, I had a conversation about my father's declining health. A conversation that included words like suffering and palliative. And then there is, of course, my ongoing journey with my son's medical complexity. In many ways my journey with my son, more than anything, modified my faith. As a younger adult I might have believed in miracles. I might have believed in an interventionist God. I don't these days.

I really, really, really dislike conversations about miracles and intercessory prayer linked to miracles. I will remember people in my prayers - but it is in the form of a communal, "I am with you in prayer and I pray that the Sacred is with you in your journey". Sacred can be defined in many ways - and for me is best reflected by Community . I do not pray "fix it" prayers.

In my opinion intercessory prayers and request for miracles are associated with many concerns, but most concerning is that such prayers often make God come across as an evil bastard. God heals someone but lets hockey players die on a bus. God prevents a car crash but lets a suffering child continue to suffer. The world is full of profound suffering and the fact that we believe in a God that ignores such catastrophic levels of suffering while "fixing" others remains one of the most troubling theodicies that requires theological gymnastics beyond my abilities - all while making God out to be a jerk.

 

[DaisyJane]

Prayer and healing: A medical and scientific perspective on randomized controlled trials

An analysis of a whole series' of serious attempts to answer this question.

They start by offering that societies waste far too much money on this. ("For a multitude of reasons, research on the healing effects of prayer is riddled with assumptions, challenges and contradictions that make the subject a scientific and religious minefield. We believe that the research has led nowhere, and that future research, if any, will forever be constrained by the scientific limitations that we outline.)

They conclude that intercessionary prayer has no statistically discernable effects.

Early in my PhD studies in theology I took a course on suffering. For the record this was a PhD level class. The prof, a theologian, handed the class an article that he claimed was a "scientific" article that clearly supported intercessory prayer. I have two degrees in the health sciences and was a PhD candidate in the health sciences before leaving to care for Matthew and ultimately moving to theology. I raised my hand and pointed out that the article a) had methodological flaws that one could drive a train through, and b) cited many theological articles for support but not a single peer-reviewed article from a respected scientific or medical journal - that no scientifically trained anybody would view this article as reliable or valid.

Now I suppose I could have phrased it more diplomatically, but how else do you point out that the article handed to PhD students who know how to critique articles and are supposed to critically engage material, was a piece of crap. The prof basically told me I was wrong and that I should stop talking. It was the only time in my life I seriously considered walking out of a class. Clearly the article demonstrated the prof's bias and little else.

Following this class, out of interest, I searched the databases for RCT work/peer reviewed articles exploring prayer and healing. My findings can essentially be summed up in Bette's link. Anecdotally "miracles" happen, but there is no way to control or study them, and the overall results suggest there is no clear link between prayer and recovery.

 

[dreamerman]

I don't believe in God so I don't have to ponder why god intervened in one case and not the other. So it would be disingenuous of me to credit god for saving one person and not the other. At the same time I don't blame god for not saving someone.

 

[dreamerman]

Early in my PhD studies in theology I took a course on suffering. For the record this was a PhD level class. The prof, a theologian, handed the class an article that he claimed was a "scientific" article that clearly supported intercessory prayer. I have two degrees in the health sciences and was a PhD candidate in the health sciences before leaving to care for Matthew and ultimately moving to theology. I raised my hand and pointed out that the article a) had methodological flaws that one could drive a train through, and b) cited many theological articles for support but not a single peer-reviewed article from a respected scientific or medical journal - that no scientifically trained anybody would view this article as reliable or valid.

Now I suppose I could have phrased it more diplomatically, but how else do you point out that the article handed to PhD students who know how to read articles and are supposed to critically engage material, was a piece of crap. The prof basically told me I was wrong that I should stop talking. It was the only time in my life I seriously considered walking out of a class. Clearly the article demonstrated the prof's bias and little else.

Following this class, out of interest, I searched the databases for RCT work/peer reviewed articles exploring prayer and healing. My findings can essentially be summed up in Bette's link. Anecdotally "miracles" happen, but there is no way to control or study them, and the overall results suggest there is no clear link between prayer and recovery.

You're prof sounds like mystic aka Beserk. It is a little scary to find out that there is more than one of him who shares this kind of teaching at the university level. Of course you can take that with a grain of salt because I barely finished a college program.

 

[Mendalla]

That is beyond "wrong". That is spiritual cruelty and according to John Swinton's work would be a theodicy that crosses into evil. I agree.

Really? The teaching behind it maybe, but I doubt one could label that person's intent that way. She could have thought it was the most compassionate response based on her understanding; what she herself would want to hear said.

 

[unsafe]

Paradox3 ---your quote -----
The idea we are debating (I think) is whether God chooses to prolong some lives and not others. If God has this power, it does not necessarily mean punishment is involved if God lets someone die.
The whole issue of God being omnipotent is problematic for me and it can be debated without any reference to punishment.
The flip side of "why does God end some lives?" is "why does God prolong others?"


unsafe says ---First off God does not give life and then takes it ----we were first designed to live forever ---Spirits don't die --we are Spirit beings -----when we Humans screwed up --God then had to set an age that humans should live to because He has to limit sin -----

unsafe Posting ----
Genesis 6 (AMP)
The Corruption of Mankind
6 Now it happened, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and desirable; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose and desired. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive and remain with man forever, because he is indeed flesh [sinful, corrupt—given over to sensual appetites]; nevertheless his days shall yet be a hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were Nephilim (men of stature, notorious men) on the earth

So anyone saying God causes them to die early before the age He Himself set ----is blaming the wrong Person ----Sin causes emotional strain on the Body ---Shame ---guilt ---anxiety ---Stress ----all take it toll on the human body ---sickness and disease is cause by harbouring these emotions ----Satan is the destroyer of Humans NOT God ------and many times it is our own bad decisions that cause death ---So when we make very bad Decisions like driving Drunk ----etc we are the cause of an early Death ---so Satan or God is not to blame in our stupid decisions of taking risks -----

Blaming God for early Death is just a Big Cope Out ----and that is a Period +++++++++

 

[BetteTheRed]

So, when a toddler dies, unsafe, it's because they've sinned, or their parents have, or someone didn't pray right? Every person who dies under 120 years of age has died early because of some sin? So a 119 year old is less guilty of sin than a child that dies at age 4?

And if you wonder why I feel so compelled to point out to you the total illogic of your theology, I'll tell ya, the Period +++++ does not help me resist temptation.

 

[Luce NDs]

Possibly because of the secular sense that kids are evil ... causing disturbances in the parents love life?

I recently came across an article defining secular as a divided case ... like somewhat bigoted curiosity of interest in the great unknown ...

Then there is the old Chinese curse about a person being exposed to a world of interest (to disturb the sleeping curiosity) ... that may leave some people at bliss with ignorance at the parallel in the old Celtic curse about being dead for have an hour before interest kicks in ... and thus it was exhausted!

Of course nothing to do with the biblical statement about trying all things ... tis a test! Perhaps prodigal ...

 

[paradox3]

Paradox3 ---your quote -----
The idea we are debating (I think) is whether God chooses to prolong some lives and not others. If God has this power, it does not necessarily mean punishment is involved if God lets someone die.
The whole issue of God being omnipotent is problematic for me and it can be debated without any reference to punishment.
The flip side of "why does God end some lives?" is "why does God prolong others?"


unsafe says ---First off God does not give life and then takes it ----we were first designed to live forever ---Spirits don't die --we are Spirit beings -----when we Humans screwed up --God then had to set an age that humans should live to because He has to limit sin -----

unsafe Posting ----
Genesis 6 (AMP)
The Corruption of Mankind
6 Now it happened, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful and desirable; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose and desired. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive and remain with man forever, because he is indeed flesh [sinful, corrupt—given over to sensual appetites]; nevertheless his days shall yet be a hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were Nephilim (men of stature, notorious men) on the earth

So anyone saying God causes them to die early before the age He Himself set ----is blaming the wrong Person ----Sin causes emotional strain on the Body ---Shame ---guilt ---anxiety ---Stress ----all take it toll on the human body ---sickness and disease is cause by harbouring these emotions ----Satan is the destroyer of Humans NOT God ------and many times it is our own bad decisions that cause death ---So when we make very bad Decisions like driving Drunk ----etc we are the cause of an early Death ---so Satan or God is not to blame in our stupid decisions of taking risks -----

Blaming God for early Death is just a Big Cope Out ----and that is a Period +++++++++

Sorry, I disagree that sickness and disease are caused by harbouring negative emotions (which you say arise from the strain of sin). Granted stress can be a factor in many physical illnesses.

But, no, we cannot say sin causes disease directly or indirectly.

Decision making by humans causes death on some occasions, yes. I like the way you take both Satan and God out of the equation here.

 

[unsafe]

BetteTheRed ----unsafe says ------I am saying that if a Toddler dies ---God did not cause the death of the toddler and for you to think or say God is the causes shows your ignorance as to who God is and what He wants for His Creation -- Humans caused their own demise by disobeying God in the Beginning -God gave the child Life --Get This ----God does not give something and then take it way --------God Restored Job's children ---Satan was the cause of their death -------Jesus restored life to Jairus's daughter --so your barking up the wrong Tree ----

The iniquity of the Father will be cast upon the children to the 3rd and 4th Generation ----that is scriptural ----Just because one does not want to believe it does not mean that it is not true -----

Exodus 34:5-7 (AMP)
5 Then the Lord descended in the cloud and stood there with Moses as he proclaimed the Name of the Lord. 6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him, and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth (faithfulness); 7 keeping mercy and loving kindness for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin;
but He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting (avenging) the iniquity (sin, guilt) of the fathers upon the children and the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations [that is, calling the children to account for the sins of their fathers].”

 

[chansen]

Talk about saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.

The "wrong thing at the wrong time?!?!?"

 

[unsafe]

paradox3 -----your quote -----, I disagree that sickness and disease are caused by harbouring negative emotions (which you say arise from the strain of sin). Granted stress can be a factor in many physical illnesses.

unsafe says ---you can disagree all you want to ----but it is a fact that negative emotions affects our immune system -----stress is a major cause of death --Heart attacks for sure ----Fear is Satan's Hook ----Love is God's Hook ----- here are some who disagree with you -----


How Fear Causes Sickness and Disease
How Fear Causes Sickness and Disease - Functional Medical Institute

by Dr. Michele Neil-Sherwood | Lifestyle

How Fear Causes Sickness and Disease


Stress and Disease - Conditions that May Be Caused by Chronic Stress
Stress! Don't Let It Make You Sick
New research reveals the links between stress and disease