UCCan Statement on Medical Assistance in Dying

[Neo]

I might they ask them why they felt it important to talk with me about it.

How sensitive of you.

 

[dreamerman]

Good question dreamerman. I'd ask them in what way(s) they thought they have heard this message from God, and whether they've checked what they consider to be God's message against what God has already said in Scripture.

I wonder if Abraham, Noah and Moses ever said to God, " wait God before I believe you I will have to check scripture first."

 

[Jaebius]

Well if they went to your church and they valued your opinion I guess then they might feel compelled to talk to you. It could happen.

Okay dreamerman, so as I already shared in post #174, "If they asked me for my opinion regarding chosen death, I would share it."

 

[Luce NDs]

Under the light of Christ .. would they be free to accept such a response from any other source?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Does a pastoral response include not only those imminently considering MAD as an option, whether by free and informed choice or due to prejudice and subtle coercion (and intervening in the latter), as well as providing pastoral care to those who feel afraid because their agency is diminished and their lives devalued by prejudicial attitudes about what a "normal" life should be and by power imbalances that exist that reinforce those prejudices? If so, what does a pastoral response to that look like?

(In my mind it looks something like opposing any precedents in the law as it is applied to cases, that have that affect - but I am not a pastor or minister)

 

[paradox3]

Oh my goodness @Kimmio. You really are concerned about possible coercion, aren't you?

I personally think the "slippery slope" aspect of this issue needs to be considered but your concern seems extreme to me.

 

[Carolla]

A problem is that the UCCAN didn't comment on the whole host of concerns in a statement until after the law was passed - after that particular road was concluded. Some of the concerns in the report are very familiar - but it's a little too little too late - unless they care to take a stand on those concerns now. One of the reasons why that road is not being travelled yet, if ever, is because people with disabilities on the whole lack a strong platform and voice and resources to oppose the legislation.

So just to clarify - the church was not silent on the issue prior to passing of the legislation as you suggest. Former Moderator Reverend Gary Paterson wrote & spoke on several occasions about the pending legislation, the United Church presented a report to the Special Joint Commission on Physician Assisted Dying in Feb 2016 - http://www.united-church.ca/sites/default/files/submission-physician-assisted-dying.pdf and I think our current Moderator Rev. Jordan Cantwell also commented.

 

[DaisyJane]

Kimmio.

We know I like the policy.

What would you want the policy to say?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Oh my goodness @Kimmio. You really are concerned about possible coercion, aren't you?

I personally think the slippery slope aspect of this issue needs to be considered, but your concern seems extreme to me.

Did you read the whole document?

I think it's only extreme if you fail to consider the abuses that have and do happen to people with disabilities. A recent example I gave was the people in BC in the late 90s - there was a rash of suicides involving people with disabilities - whose supports were abruptly cut off due to bureaucratic changes. It can be as simple as not having anyone who understands or seeks to understand the precedents for abuse that currently exist and how quickly one can feel hopeless. But because a person has a disability pre-existing that is seen as a medical problem - part of the vulnerability is failing to see the underlying social problems that go along with it - and assessing on medical problems alone.

I already told my doctor - if I ever come to you suicudal (my fear being that someday my medical condition alone might be reason enough to get an approval if I am feeling that way), don't even let me entertain the idea! He told me a story about a man who jumped off a bridge and was saved by a harbour seal - and said he'd be my harbour seal! Not everyone will have a doctor like that.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

So just to clarify - the church was not silent on the issue prior to passing of the legislation as you suggest. Former Moderator Reverend Gary Paterson wrote & spoke on several occasions about the pending legislation, the United Church presented a report to the Special Joint Commission on Physician Assisted Dying in Feb 2016 - http://www.united-church.ca/sites/default/files/submission-physician-assisted-dying.pdf and I think our current Moderator Rev. Jordan Cantwell also commented.

My apologies. I missed it. I was in communication with disability advocates at the time.

 

[DaisyJane]

Oh my goodness @Kimmio. You really are concerned about possible coercion, aren't you?

I personally think the "slippery slope" aspect of this issue needs to be considered but your concern seems extreme to me.

I agree. I think we need to be watching for the slippery slope, but I personally don't see the threats that Kimmio sees. What concerns me is that people manufacture a slippery slope where it doesn't exist simply to argue against MAID more globally.

 

[paradox3]

I already told my doctor - if I ever come to you suucidal, don't even let me entertain the idea! He told me a story about a man who jumped off a bridge and was saved by a harbour seal - and said he'd be my harbour seal! Not everyone will have a doctor like that.

It might be important to distinguish between suicidal ideation and the more rational thought process that can lead to a request for MAID.

 

[DaisyJane]

My apologies. I missed it. I was in communication with disability advocates at the time.

You see, this can be a bit a problem. You are only focusing on one aspect of a heavily nuanced and complex argument. There was previously written material that you argued didn't exist and your rationale for missing it was because you were reading the stuff that conformed with your worldview.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

You see, this can be a bit a problem. You are only focusing on one aspect of a heavily nuanced and complex argument. There was previously written material that you argued didn't exist and your rationale for missing it was because you were reading the stuff that conformed with your worldview.

I was reading a lot of stuff - articles and editorials. Not much space was being devoted to the voices of PWD's with serious concerns. I was in contact with some of those responsible for writing the Vulnerable Persons Standard. Even the MLA in my area held a community hall in support of MAID. The "other side" did get 5 minutes of fame last year when that movie came out.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

It might be important to distinguish between suicidal ideation and the more rational thought process that can lead to a request for MAID.

Exactly. But they can be hard to differentiate in someone if the person treating them only sees "disability" not a life worth living despite disability and "suffering" that may result and where that suffering originates. And a group of people with disabilities is currently involved in drafting suicide prevention documents for professionals who work with PWDs. Similar to how they created emergency response booklets that were created specific to the needs of people with disabilities.

To add, the conversation with my doctor was about my feelings about MAID.

 

[Carolla]

Just want to say thanks to revjohn for posting the link to the full document. I appreciate the ability to read and reflect on what the committee has written.

 

[revjohn]

Looks like the link in the OP has also been fixed so newcomers to the thread will be able to get to the whole document right away.

 

[Carolla]

Interested to receive this link from my professional association today - didn't hear anything else about Ontario passing this legislation re MAID .. . https://news.ontario.ca/mohltc/en/2...l-assistance-in-dying.html?platform=hootsuite

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I agree. I think we need to be watching for the slippery slope, but I personally don't see the threats that Kimmio sees. What concerns me is that people manufacture a slippery slope where it doesn't exist simply to argue against MAID more globally.

You see, it seems to me, as much as you think that I view your stance and/ or your concerns as irrelevant - I think you feel that way about mine. I don't see you doing anything much to relate to the other side of this, the side that is not your worldview. You are in ministerial training/ education, right? That slippery slope you claim is manufactured is actually not. It is directly related to the very same concerns addressed in the full UCCAN document pertaining to people with disabilities. Yet, you dismiss it as if those are minor or secondary concerns.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Oh my goodness @Kimmio. You really are concerned about possible coercion, aren't you?

I personally think the "slippery slope" aspect of this issue needs to be considered but your concern seems extreme to me.

The majority of people with disabilities opposed to MAD are concerned about it. That informed the Vulnerable Person's Standard, the law that some people who are even claiming is too strict, and it informed statements in the UCCAN document. I resent that people think this is my issue, and a fringe position, actually. Because it is not - the only thing that makes it a fringe issue is that it pertains to already marginalized - who are lesser in number than the mainstream - people who haven't been given a strong voice. But as a group they share the same concerns.