Transgenderism ..... ask your questions!

[BetteTheRed]

No purple font here, Jae. A public reminder from one member to another. You've used sources linked back to the American College of Paediatricians, most specifically, and fairly recently, in your campaign against an updated sex ed curriculum. Their tiny numbers coupled with their narrow focus make them suspect in most readers' eyes, particularly when coupled with their transparent attempt to be conflated with the comprehensive, widely respected American Academy of Paediatricians.

You're a jokester, Jae, but sometimes we also need to remind readers of the FACTS.

 

[Jaebius]

No purple font here, Jae. A public reminder from one member to another. You've used sources linked back to the American College of Paediatricians, most specifically, and fairly recently, in your campaign against an updated sex ed curriculum. Their tiny numbers coupled with their narrow focus make them suspect in most readers' eyes, particularly when coupled with their transparent attempt to be conflated with the comprehensive, widely respected American Academy of Paediatricians.

You're a jokester, Jae, but sometimes we also need to remind readers of the FACTS.

Bette, as you're not on the Council, you have no place in issuing me (nor anyone else for that matter) warnings. You seem to be under the illusion that I am advocating for the ACP in this thread, which is not the case. Have a pleasant afternoon Bette.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Really, I have no right to make a public suggestion to you? Who the hell do you think you are? Certainly not immune to criticism, I'll tell you. I'm criticizing you for repeatedly using shitty resources. Got that one?

 

[Luce NDs]

Thus social commentary falls on deaf ears ... following blind faith that he is right ... but doesn't know anon ... it'll come to him ... some dark night!

It is plain that he wishes to lead without knowing Y's ...

Tis a god awful cognizance ...

 

[Jaebius]

Really, I have no right to make a public suggestion to you? Who the hell do you think you are? Certainly not immune to criticism, I'll tell you. I'm criticizing you for repeatedly using s**tty resources. Got that one?

I think I'm a person who's on the same level as you are Bette - a member of WC2 but not on the Council. As such is the case, I don't go around issuing warnings to other members as you did to me.

 

[Luce NDs]

I think I'm a person who's on the same level as you are Bette - a member of WC2 but not on the Council. As such is the case, I don't go around issuing warnings to other members as you did to me.

Perhaps .. perhaps a false impression of thy's elf ...

 

[revjohn]

One of the things that I found interesting about the article was - how many times have we heard from @RitaTG and others that trans people have suicided because they haven't been accepted by their families. Yet, in this case, we have someone who absolutely was accepted by their parents and yet did a suicide.

True enough.

Which is part of the tragedy. When the parents are so obviously part of the problem it is heartbreaking to know that the people who should have been supportive by default fail their child so miserably it becomes part of an end of life choice. Here we don't have that and we get to see the rest of the problem at play which is a whole layer of society that overtly grinds difference down.

I noticed that it very frequently referred to the child as a girl (she, etc.). I did not notice that it never one referred to the child as a boy.

Which is, all things considered disrespectful and it is hard to believe that isn't intentional. How many times do you think this paper reports a death and deliberately calls the deceased by some other name other than what they answer to? They interview the mom, or maybe they didn't and are only quoting somebody who bothered to do the journalism, and the mom is very clear about how her son Jay is dead.

But they have to correct her ignorance and remind everybody it was really a girl Jane who died.

No compassion. None. No empathy. None. That is their Christian witness. And it absolutely, competely sucks. It demonstrates clearly they truly do not care about the life that has been lost or the pain of the family. They have an agenda point and this family's tragedy is a trophy for them.

My feeling is that what the mother was saying is that churches didn't want her to love and accept her child for being the person the child claimed to be. Rather, they wanted her to play a part in helping her child to accept who they felt the child actually was.

Fair point. If the only support a congregation will offer is how to help people fit into the slots they believe folk should be assigned to they are not interested in helping those people they are interested in forcing them to conform. What a poor Christian witness.

I can recall the ACP and the AAP being discussed before on WC and/or WC2, so I was cognizant of the difference when I read the article. I did find this interesting in the article, "Gender dysphoria, formerly listed as gender identity disorder, is a recognized mental disorder in the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association." I did not know that. I had thought it was no longer classified as a mental disorder.

It's inclusion in the DSM doesn't make it a disorder. It is a mental health issue. One really should read the entry becasue it identifies the core problem, does not assign any kind of moral value to that problem and it lists possible treatments. One of which is gender reassignment surgery. It suggests that any such surgical recourse not occur before the end of puberty. At the very least individuals experiencing gender dysphoria need a lot of support.

Support is not actually directing individuals to make certain decisions based on the recommendations of a social advocacy group. Particularly when that social advocacy group is as shady as the American College of Pediatrics proves itself to be.

Support is recognizing somebody is experiencing anxiety and not taking action which will increase it.

It's like you're saying, 'Numbers don't prove the majority right, but here are the numbers anyway.'

The majority is as apt to be wrong as any minority. So let's look at it another way. You have an urgent medical condition. You ask a doctor for an opinion. They give it. A doctor consulted for a second opinion gives the same advice as the first, in fact you have to ask another 125 physicians for second opinions before you get a legitimate second opinion. So, 127 doctors advise opinion A and 1 advises opinion B. What opinion are you going to follow?

And if it takes you that many doctors giving you the same advice until you find a different opinon why were you wasting so much time unless you were hunting for a preferential solution and not necessarily common medical thought.

Christian Post is tailoring its message to suit those who are its base of regular readers (of which I am not one. I saw the article because it was linked to from something else I do follow on Facebook).

Then it isn't providing news. It is providing propaganda. It has no interest in this story save to claim it as a trophy to prove their point. It is great when Christianity is so mercenary.

I didn't pick up on any reveling going on over the suicide.

Every time they called Jay Jane, and everytime they referred to him as her they were claiming victory for their hateful and hurtful perspective. They don't have the common decency to mourn a death they have to claim that the child took her life because of the abuse she was enduring at the hands of loving parents who supported her.

What makes you think that they cared about Jay at all?

Was it all the times they refused to name him Jay or all the times they refused to identify him with a masculine pronoun.

I didn't see Christian Post as blaming the parents.

Really?

The American College of Pediatricians, a national organization of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals dedicated to the health and well-being of children, warned last year that conditioning children to accept transgenderism as normal is child abuse as it is classified as a mental illness.

See it now? And you want to know why they did it? Because in all the instances where we have had unsupportive parents cramming their heartless interpretation of Christianity down their child's throats until the child is dead that has been labelled abusive. It is tit for tat.

Call good Christian parents who betray their children's trust abusive will you? Wait until we do the same with poor Christian parents who are supportive.

Here I think you're way over the top John. No one is saying that suicide is preferred.

No one? Not even those who have sent Transgendered individuals death threats?

You are absolutely certain that nobody would rather have a dead trans kid than a happy and healthy one?

Even those who claim that transgenderism is child abuse?

 

[Northwind]

Hi everybody (I started this while John was posting so it refers to the posts just before his) please remember your manners as you discuss this topic. @Jae please be open to the feedback you are being given. Thank you.

 

[Jaebius]

Hi everybody (I started this while John was posting so it refers to the posts just before his) please remember your manners as you discuss this topic. @Jae please be open to the feedback you are being given. Thank you.

I am open to hearing well-meant and presented feedback as @revjohn is providing.

 

[Northwind]

I am open to hearing well-meant and presented feedback as @revjohn is providing.

@revjohn does outline things nicely. He has also said things others have said.

 

[Jaebius]

@revjohn does outline things nicely. He has also said things others have said.

Yes, some others.

 

[Carolla]

In the Sunday Toronto Star today, there is an adapted excerpt from a book - "At the Broken Places: A Mother and Trans Son Pick Up the Pieces" by Mary Collins and Donald Collins. (Beacon Press 2017. It's an insightful and thought provoking look at the experience of this dyad. It's a challenging situation for most of us to imagine (at least I think so) and I appreciate their candidness in writing this book. As I appreciate the grace and candidness of our RitaTG who has taught me so much here at WonderCafe2.

Transgender son and his mother on the rebirth and grief of his coming out | Toronto Star

 

[RitaTG]

Good morning everyone!
Such a lively discussion! Thank you RevJohn for doing such a great job of analyzing and critiquing the article that Jae brought forward.
I will not read the article because the suicide aspect is far too much for me right now. I am still recovering and I am being careful to avoid things like this that open still fresh wounds.
A few comments if I may.........
First ..... to offer information from discredited sources that are well know to be very biased on such subjects without providing any reason why the article is being offered I find to be needlessly provocative and harmful to persons that struggle with these things every single day. I would suggest that posting an article without context to be potentially harmful and unkind. This article is all of that and more.
Second .... Jae you make the mistake and fall for the either/or exclusive argument.
Yes I have said that parental support is vital to the well being of a trans child and it reduces the suicide risk.
However that is not the only factor and parental support does NOT eliminate the risk of suicide.
Outside social support is critical and I would suggest that in this case the outside social environment was heavily influenced by religious people. Imagine yourself stepping out of your home every day to face mockery, condemnation, ridicule, and rejection. Imagine having to watch your parents endure the very same thing because of you.
Please do not suggest to me that this was not the case because it was not mentioned in the article. The tone of the article is an expression of that persecution.
I will finish with this ..... my heart is again sorrowful and heavy with the needless loss of this young one and it is affecting me greatly. This is why I need to go to the churches next. I feel a calling to add my voice to those that are crying out that a dogma is leaching the love out of the response to those of us that are different. It kills. And here we have another loss that we can easily trace back to that. Perhaps it is time for love first.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

I posted it because I found it both interesting and relevant to the topic being discussed. If you don't Mrs. A., move along. You're not required to read it. There's no test on it later.

Completly agree with you, Jae, some people better be ignored.

 

[Jaebius]

Completly agree with you, Jae, some people better be ignored.

And the unnecessary insults continue.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

Thank you, Rita, there is no like button, so I just want to say how I appreciate your patience here and your feedback despite Jaes rudeness.

 

[Jaebius]

Thank you, Rita, there is no like button, so I just want to say how I appreciate your patience here and your feedback despite Jaes rudeness.

And yet another unnecessary and untrue insult.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

Reading Carollas article, I was wondering how parents so seemingly react surprised to the coming out. She knew her child as a daughter- is there nothing that has made this mother wonder at some point and looking back makes it clear that there were early signs of Their kid being trans- or at least struggling with a gender role?
I can't imagine there aren't any signs? ( I believe the son mentioned that his dad thought at some point, he was gay).
Isn't the mother actually grieving the expectations of a daughter she had more so than a change in her daughters personality since there wouldn't be any reason to change the peersonality?

 

[Jaebius]

Good morning everyone!
Such a lively discussion! Thank you RevJohn for doing such a great job of analyzing and critiquing the article that Jae brought forward.
I will not read the article because the suicide aspect is far too much for me right now...

May I ask RitaTG, since you did not read the article, how you knew that @revjohn did a great job of analyzing and critiquing the article.

I am still recovering and I am being careful to avoid things like this that open still fresh wounds.

A few comments if I may.........
First ..... to offer information from discredited sources that are well know to be very biased on such subjects without providing any reason why the article is being offered I find to be needlessly provocative and harmful to persons that struggle with these things every single day...

I am not aware that Christian Post is a discredited source here on Wondercafe2, nor that it is "know (sic) to be very biased on such subjects." As to the "why," this is a thread about transgenderism, and the article discusses a case of transgenderism. That is the obvious context.

I would suggest that posting an article without context to be potentially harmful and unkind. This article is all of that and more.

The context is obvious.

Second .... Jae you make the mistake and fall for the either/or exclusive argument. Yes I have said that parental support is vital to the well being of a trans child and it reduces the suicide risk.
However that is not the only factor and parental support does NOT eliminate the risk of suicide.
Outside social support is critical and I would suggest that in this case the outside social environment was heavily influenced by religious people. Imagine yourself stepping out of your home every day to face mockery, condemnation, ridicule, and rejection. Imagine having to watch your parents endure the very same thing because of you.
Please do not suggest to me that this was not the case because it was not mentioned in the article. The tone of the article is an expression of that persecution.

So if something is not mentioned in the article, it means that it occured? That seems like strange logic to me RitaTG. Nevertheless, I agree with you that the parents no doubt were also persecuted - as were any siblings. I think some of that is heard in the mother's words.

I will finish with this ..... my heart is again sorrowful and heavy with the needless loss of this young one and it is affecting me greatly. This is why I need to go to the churches next. I feel a calling to add my voice to those that are crying out that a dogma is leaching the love out of the response to those of us that are different. It kills. And here we have another loss that we can easily trace back to that. Perhaps it is time for love first.

I understand your sorrow. Any suicide is a tragedy.

For years now you've spoken of going to the churches. How is that working out for you? Have the churches you've reached out to been welcoming to you? How many have you spoken at and what has been the effect?

 

[RitaTG]

Hello Jae .....
I am not going to reply to most of your comments because as usual there is no useful substance to them.
I am not going to play the shell game of comments with you. I am sure you are fully aware my comments are valid.
I am sorry but your proven game of obfuscation and then playing the martyr role has grown to weary for me to play.
As for my going to the churches ... there is something valid to respond to...
I am making progress and I am working with a pastor of a very large prominent baptist church to offer the evangelical community an opportunity to meet a trans person (me) and to discuss how it feels from both sides.
I expect this big event will take place in September. The influence of this church is such that the attendance should be very large and involve a large number of evangelical churches in the area. I am sure this is just a start.
I will keep WonderCafe2 updated as the plans progress. Thank you for asking.