Transgenderism ..... ask your questions!

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revjohn said:
There are now several competing statements that I am aware of Nashville, Denver, Nazareth are the ones I recall immediately. Thought I saw a fourth one this morning but as it was allegedly based on the Barmen Declaration it may be something other. Perhaps a thread comparing these three would help to avoid derailing conversation here?
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Great idea ☺
Would you care to start such a thread please?
 
Rogue trains of thought? Eunice, or just eunuch ...

Tha's the word for yah ... alternately sublime ... so as to support those desiring naïveté ... there's a great herd of eM out there ...

They believe me crazy ... have they looked round and ab-ote as to the function of those that believe the environment is a hoax or joke?

Leaders; things attached to a line before fishing with a big spoon ... easily hung up because of hoo-iques ... non poetic jerks will pull them right out of the pool ... mist understood bottomlands ... the adepts of the myth!

Curios lies crank the observant sol ...
 
A heartfelt letter from a Youth Pastor....

https://churchleaders.com/youth/you...-pastor-transgender-student-michael-guyer.htm

Can you feel the love that's coming from the Youth Pastor?

An excerpt...

"Your feeling as if your gender does not align with your biological sex is not sin. It is evidence that we live sin-stained world. What would be sin would be to reject your God-given sex and gender in favor of your own feelings. Struggling with your gender identity while trying to live in obedience to God is different than embracing a transgender identity."
 
Jae said:
A heartfelt letter from a Youth Pastor....

https://churchleaders.com/youth/you...-pastor-transgender-student-michael-guyer.htm

Can you feel the love that's coming from the Youth Pastor?

An excerpt...

"Your feeling as if your gender does not align with your biological sex is not sin. It is evidence that we live sin-stained world. What would be sin would be to reject your God-given sex and gender in favor of your own feelings. Struggling with your gender identity while trying to live in obedience to God is different than embracing a transgender identity."
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A Letter from a Youth Pastor to a Transgender Student
 
Mrs.Anteater said:
What is YOUR question, Jae?
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I assume it is

Jae said:
Can you feel the love that's coming from the Youth Pastor?
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And I can't. Love doesn't force you to make impossible choices between what you believe and what you are or to deny what you are to satisfy doctrine. The pastor may feel he is being loving, but I suspect the recipient won't feel the love. T'were I, I would shoot said pastor a figurative (and maybe even literal) middle finger and start church shopping.
 
Mendalla said:

I assume it is



And I can't. Love doesn't force you to make impossible choices between what you believe and what you are or to deny what you are to satisfy doctrine. The pastor may feel he is being loving, but I suspect the recipient won't feel the love. T'were I, I would shoot said pastor a figurative (and maybe even literal) middle finger and start church shopping.
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Yes, you saw my question Mendalla. Thank you for responding to it.
 
It's just Jae bringing the worst crap he can find to us with the intention of getting a reaction. Again. He wants your anger. Don't give him what he wants.
 
chansen said:
It's just Jae bringing the worst crap he can find to us with the intention of getting a reaction. Again. He wants your anger. Don't give him what he wants.
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Yes, good call chansen. That's exactly why I would bring such a letter, which I feel was written with good intentions, to the thread for consideration.

Now, what's your question?
 
Enough. This isn't the "pour scorn on Jae" thread. I honestly answered his question (which was on topic, BTW) and kept the thread on topic. I think you've made your feelings clear, @chansen , now maybe we can carry on with the topic at hand.
 
Jae said:
Can you feel the love that's coming from the Youth Pastor?
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I feel a very conditional love. He says he heard the transgender person yet I don't think he did. If he did, he would try to listen and understand better. He would not try to impose his views on the other person. What views are those you ask? The view that the trans person is not acting as God intended. The view that only following a certain faith path will make the person okay. That's not love.
 
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Some can't see the whole thing as much of what's missing is still beyond the mortal condition ... confined ... and left behind as Jesus moved on to further developments of psyche ... it grows ... while some are stoned! monumental and hard ...
 
My own take is that the Youth Pastor is trying to be loving. I feel he is writing with good intentions.

At the same time, I do feel that he could be doing better than this. One thought that comes to my mind is - why is he sending a letter anyway? I feel that if he has something to say, he should be open to entering into genuine dialogue with the Youth he's serving.
 
Northwind said:
Very interesting. Even some of the comments.
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There's a couple good discussions buried in there but there also enough transphobic crap that the poster has more or less given up responding. Maybe I will amend my advisory to read comments at your own risk, though.:rolleyes:
 
Jae said:
Can you feel the love that's coming from the Youth Pastor?
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No. I can't. Here's why.

I see an attempt to appear reasonable, pastoral even. I find it hard to see the letter as anything other than a stunt.

For starters, the opening conceit is that this is not an open letter to any transgendered student so much as it is a private letter to a specific transgender student. That being the case why are we, who know nothing of the relationship or the initiating letter being invited to observe the conversation? Has the transgender student been asked if they mind this correspondence being public? Did they consent?

I do see a blueprint for a such a letter more than I see an actual letter and as a result, this letter is less about honest communication and more about a communication strategy. The letter fails to be pastoral in that it does not show an attempt to walk on any particular island that the transgender student finds him or herself on so much as it attempts to relocate that student to a more appropriate island. The letter is not concerned about being present with so much as it is solving a problem.

I suspect the rest of the posts from the same series are structured in a similar way. In fact, I followed the link provided in the article to "Letter To a Gay Student" only to find that the letter is more of a form letter with certain issues swapped in or out in a hope to target a specific audience. That is a pastoral failure from where I sit because it shows that the real issue is not the individual so much as it is the issue being identified which the student allegedly is struggling.

That said, we can learn from forms and shape our responses more pastorally with the help of a form.

I expect that those parts of the text which are emboldened serve to identify the flow of this form of a letter. With that in mind, the form loosely illustrated suggests that when we write to transgender students we should remember the following points:
1) We are there for them (which really isn't true but we want to say that up front to make what we have to say more powerful).
2) Acknowledge generic doubts and give permission for those doubts to exist. Also, claim that any questions raised deserve to be responded to respectfully and prayerfully (which sounds reassuring even if it doesn't actually come to pass).
3) Shift the conversation away from the student and their questions/concerns to God's plan.
4) Be careful not to label the student with questions a sinner but do take time to ensure that you close off certain options in conversation by labeling attempts to go that way sinful. It gives us space in the event of negative fall-out to plausibly deny that we called the student a sinner.
5) Evangelical soft-sell. The Transgender student has not yet been designated a sinner and we clearly articulate what the Transgender student must do to avoid being designated a sinner.
6) Having baited the hook of acceptance and respect earlier we make the switch and demonstrate that the questions and the struggle should not be entertained in any way.
7) Having pulled the about-face and leaving the Transgender Student confused reiterate that you are present for them (which again, is not really true in a pastoral sense).

Most of the emboldened text would actually make the letter more pastoral if it was not included. What I think should have been emboldened instead are the following selections.

Michael Guyer said:
But my heart also groans because I know the church has not always felt like a place you could talk about this struggle. As a result, you have felt disconnected and not truly known yourself. Along the way, you have been disappointed, hurt and isolated by the actions and words of Christians. I grieve over the pain and loneliness you have experienced.
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This is a truly pastoral response and if it was sincerely held it would shape the rest of the letter. That Guyer can make this identification and then go on to subvert it represents a tragedy.

Michael Guyer said:
I have to admit that I have not always been careful in speaking about transgender issues. I have too easily settled for a shallow understanding of the issues. Please forgive me if I have ever done this in our conversations. I want you to know that your willingness to share with me has driven me to learn more and seek God’s wisdom. I cannot pretend that I know all the answers.
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This is also a truly pastoral response. Mr. Guyer appears to have some good pastoral reflexes. Sadly he forgets that sheep need a Pastor, not issues. His concern for the issue removes him from the Pastoral relationship and puts him, ultimately, into a gatekeeping function where he is more concerned about protecting rules and boundaries than he is walking with individuals who are struggling with those rules and boundaries.

The first two paragraphs are quite good, pastorally. Everything that follows is less pastoral and more gatekeeping. Along the way, there appear to be several emotional snares laid with the intent of capturing the Transgender student and forcing them to adopt an understanding of normal that meshes with Evangelical perspective. Which is why the letter ultimately fails to be considered pastoral or loving.

Because it is part of a series and one other letter from that series viewed uses a very similar form and more than a few common phrases and arguments.

The letters are ultimately less about what the target audience thinks and more about what the Youth Pastor believes the target audience should be thinking.
 
Jae said:
A heartfelt letter from a Youth Pastor....

https://churchleaders.com/youth/you...-pastor-transgender-student-michael-guyer.htm

Can you feel the love that's coming from the Youth Pastor?

An excerpt...

"Your feeling as if your gender does not align with your biological sex is not sin. It is evidence that we live sin-stained world. What would be

sin would be to reject your God-given sex and gender in favor of your own feelings. Struggling with your gender identity while trying to live in

obedience to God is different than embracing a transgender identity."
Click to expand...

Thank you for bringing this forward for discussion Jae...
I will answer your question and then explain my point of view as best I can.
Please do not take what I will say to be directed at you personally as my comments are meant for the corporate evangelical church institution ( ...loosely the church in general...).
...............
Now to answer your question......
NO ...... I DO NOT "feel the love" coming from this Youth Pastor......
What I do feel is hubris and condescension masquerading as love
Early on in the letter the pastor makes the following statement; " I have too easily settled for a shallow understanding of the issues". And there we have the core of the problem. in a nutshell .....ignorance......ignorance where knowledge abounds.
There is so much good peer reviewed research and analysis by credible experts regarding the reality transgenderism that there is no longer any excuse for not being able to become informed. The research is conclusive.....transgenderism is real and is not a defect nor a mental illness. The defect does not lie with the person but rather than within a society that has believed a lie. The church is and has been the main driver of this lie.
Lets take a moment to look at this from a biblical lens......
- God created Adam the first human being in the image of God. A complete image.
- Later God makes Eve "out of" part of Adam. Notice that God did not create Eve seperately.
- This infers that Adam was originally both male and female. In today's language the first person created was intersexed (one of the various forms of transgenderism`). This first person was created in the image of God therefore God must be a complex mixture of male and female.
- Biblically transgenderism is natural and a valid expression of the image of God.
- Further the bible states `male and female he created them` Please notice it does not say `male OR female he created them`. ÒR`would `have made a definite separation but the word ÀND`was used which speaks to a combination. Biblically we are all created with both male and female attributes.
It takes some incredible biblical gymnastics to explain away this dilemma and make the bible suit the preferred theology.
Now on to the pastor .... a leader ....a spiritual leader....dealing with the very core of this person.
This pastor is offering guidance and teaching based on bias, convenience, and ignorance. This is far from love regardless of the intent. This is a leader caring for a soul without doing due diligence to be sure what he is offering is correct.
This is the sort of leadership that damages and often destroys my young ones". This needs to STOP.

I have a few quotes that I would like us to examine within the context of this conversation and I invite comments, especially yours Jae, as they are important to the serious subject we are discussing.
............
`Prejudice is an emotional commitment to ignorance` by Nathan Rutstein
.......
`The ultimate ignorance is the rejection of something you know nothing about yet refuse to investigate` by Dr. Wayne Dyer
(to this I would add `to investigate honestly`)
.........
Thoughts please....
 
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