Transgenderism ..... ask your questions!

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revsdd said:
Serious question, not meant to cause offense and I hope it doesn't.

I was reading the Wikipedia entry for Caitlyn Jenner. In the section of the article dealing with Bruce Jenner's Olympic career, as the gold medal winner in the 1976 men's decathlon in Montreal, the references to Bruce Jenner are still using the pronoun "she." I don't know exactly how to word this, so I'll try my best to do so respectfully. Is the change in pronoun generally used to cover a transgendered person's entire life, including during the period when the transgendered person was living publicly as the other gender? So, in reference to the Olympic story of "Bruce" is it appropriate to say "she" won the men's decathlon, or would it be "he" won the men's decathlon? What would be your view, Rita, and is there a universally accepted protocol in the transgendered community about this?
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Well revsdd .... unfortunately there is no universal simplistic protocol.
Some prefer the present pronoun and name be applied to their history as well.
Others like myself feel it is generally acceptable to refer to us in our former lives according to the gender presentation at that time. Were one to refer to my mining career I would find it acceptable to use male pronouns and name.
Please keep in mind that it becomes increasingly uncomfortable for us to be referred to in the gender we struggle so hard to move away from.
I would suggest this guideline ...... ask first.... if that is not possible them only refer to us in the former gender if it is necessary for understanding and context and to do so in as sensitive a way as possible. Affirm our present gender (Rita ... in her former life as a he....)
I hope this helps and thank you for being brave and trusting enough to bring forward such a sensitive topic.
Hugs
Rita
 
Pr. Jae said:
Since Jenner was not actually male when she won Olympic gold in men's events, she should be made to give back those medals and asked to renounce her wins - right?
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Now that is quite a troubling statement.
This is the sort of bigoted logic I expect to hear from the extremists.
Was that your intent Jae? ... I sincerely hope not...
 
Pr. Jae said:
There's no doubt she was male, you say. I thought the pov of transgendered persons was that they always knew they were the opposite gender to what their bodies were. If Jenner knew she was a female inside a man's body then she shouldn't have competed in men's sports. It was dishonest for her to do so. If being a certain gender is only about what body you have (I would say it isn't, but you seem to differ here), that would discredit the transgendered argument of one being able to having a different gender than one's physical being.
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Jae ..... please stop ......
I expect better from you ..... you know better and you have had things explained to you over and over and in depth from a myriad of viewpoints.
In my opinion ....it is time you showed a little more maturity and respect.
 
RitaTG said:
Now that is quite a troubling statement.
This is the sort of bigoted logic I expect to hear from the extremists.
Was that your intent Jae? ... I sincerely hope not...
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RitaTG - Was Jenner male or female when she competed in the Olympics?
 
Pr. Jae said:
RitaTG - Was Jenner male or female when she competed in the Olympics?
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Jae ... that does not even deserve a dignified answer......
You refuse to get it ... you refuse ..... no one can be that dense ..... as far as I can see you are deliberately being ignorant.
You have been here long enough and read enough here to know better....
Answer your own question with your own comfortable small minded views.
You have pushed a button ..... really pushed it .......
I am angry .....
 
RitaTG said:
Jae ...
that does not even deserve a dignified answer......
You refuse to get it ... you refuse ..... no one can be that dense .....
as far as I can see you are deliberately being ignorant.
You have been here long enough and read enough here to know better....
Answer your own question with your own comfortable small minded views.
You have pushed a button ..... really pushed it .......I am angry .....
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chansen said:
Are you following a set of instructions on how to be disliked?
Maybe you're writing a book on the subject and you're doing research?
There is no point to your arguments. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
There is no doubt she was a male at the time. She may have felt female her whole life for all we know, but her physical attributes were male.
You're just being an idiot for sport again.
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@chansen perhaps this quote dropped by you into another thread could be applied in this thread as well ... with reference to yours and RitaTG's reactions to @Pr. Jae posts...
  • "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." (Voltaire)
@Inannawhimsey and some of your words from another thread seem to apply to this thread as well ...
  • "people trying to make their being offended against the law and even though western civilization has made such awesome attempts at mitigating that, with such things as universal human rights, people still will try to fall back into the old ways of following someone else's making their being offended into law...Robert Heinlein called it the Crazy Years..."
 
Chris Hedges recently said ..."We cannot pick and choose which of the oppressed are convenient or inconvenient to defend. We will stand with all of the oppressed or none of the oppressed. And when we stand with the oppressed we will be treated like the oppressed"...
The Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner's of the world stand with the oppressors not the oppressed ... I have no quarrel with you or your gender @RitaTG ... I do however draw the line at respecting or supporting the antics of a media/fame whore the likes of Jenner ... you will not change my mind on that!
 
UnDefinitive said:
Chris Hedges recently said ..."We cannot pick and choose which of the oppressed are convenient or inconvenient to defend. We will stand with all of the oppressed or none of the oppressed. And when we stand with the oppressed we will be treated like the oppressed"...
The Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner's of the world stand with the oppressors not the oppressed ... I have no quarrel with you or your gender @RitaTG ... I do however draw the line at respecting or supporting the antics of a media/fame whore the likes of Jenner ... you will not change my mind on that!
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Don't know where your particular judgment starts and ends, undef. What is the definition of a "media/fame whore"? Is it anyone involved in media? Anyone famous for whatever reason? Was Bruce okay when he was 'just' an Olympic athlete, not okay when he got involved in the reality tv world? I have difficulty with dismissing anyone based on someone else's opinion of them.
 
”RitaTG in her opening post of this thread” said:
I have started this thread to provide a place to ask your questions regarding transgenderism. Ask away .... this will be a safe place to do it....
I will consider all questions to be asked in good faith and I shall reply in kind.....
This is an important issue ..... so many are hidden .... and many sit in the pews of our churches. Thank you for wanting to learn......
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”Pr. Jae said:
(Proceeds to ask questions)
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”RitaTG” said:
Jae ... that does not even deserve a dignified answer...... You refuse to get it ... you refuse ..... no one can be that dense ..... as far as I can see you are deliberately being ignorant. You have been here long enough and read enough here to know better....
Answer your own question with your own comfortable small minded views. You have pushed a button ..... really pushed it ....... I am angry .....
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o_O:confused:
 
Pr. Jae said:
o_O:confused:
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You are not getting off with this....
You know better and I am sure my record will show I am more than willing to answer questions asked in a respectful manner.
You have not done that in this instance and you know better.
If you really want a considered answer then I require a respectful question and stop simply trying to be provocative.
Now try again ..... look at how revsdd asks if you need a model on how to approach a sensitive topic.
 
UnDefinitive said:
Chris Hedges recently said ..."We cannot pick and choose which of the oppressed are convenient or inconvenient to defend. We will stand with all of the oppressed or none of the oppressed. And when we stand with the oppressed we will be treated like the oppressed"...
The Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner's of the world stand with the oppressors not the oppressed ... I have no quarrel with you or your gender @RitaTG ... I do however draw the line at respecting or supporting the antics of a media/fame whore the likes of Jenner ... you will not change my mind on that!
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I would suggest that is a case of severe judgement that leaves no room for grace.
That may be a good working example of bigotry.
No room for grace ... no possibility of being heard .....
Hmmmmmmmmm
 
@BetteTheRed 'whore - compromise oneself for money or other gains; "She whored herself to Hollywood"'
@RitaTG 'judgement - the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions' ... there is always room for grace ... perhaps you are confusing grace with the cultural pull toward absolute, mindless tolerance.
Bigotry is making a judgment without knowing the facts...
 
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If one calls their neighbour or sibling a fool what could one expect as a given return from the impulsive act?

And the human imagination wonders why ... is this a consequence of living in a domain set free in desires; where you can say what you will and expect no return or Canan? That's the nature of multifaceted report! Could report be multiple in a social domain that is ignored by singularities ... gathered psyches ... once the illusion collapses to the point of the myth?

Rational from that state: say nothing that appears to make sense in critical thinking modes hell bent for correction of erroneous desires!
 
UnDefinitive said:
@BetteTheRed 'whore - compromise oneself for money or other gains; "She whored herself to Hollywood"'
@RitaTG 'judgement - the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions' ... there is always room for grace ... perhaps you are confusing grace with the cultural pull toward absolute, mindless tolerance.
Bigotry is making a judgment without knowing the facts...
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Bigotry .... you have said it well .....
As for grace .... it would seem that would seem a concept that you have much to learn about.....
...the woman caught in adultery ...... I can now see what you would have done with your rock...
 
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