Toward 2035

[paradox3]

The Church I attend right now has a Full Gym attached to it ---where they hold all kinds of social activities ---and events --and that alone is pulling more people to attend the church ---they come?? cause they get free use of the big Gym ----basketball nets and a wide space to hang around ------wrong motive -----just my view ----

Such things are often better at attraction than retention of members. Of course one could argue that providing basketball nets & courts is a community service.

 

[Nancy]

@chansen I respect your views most of the time. From what I can gather, you are an admirable coach. But I do feel that your negative view about all aspects of the United Church in particular, and the Christian faith in general is lopsided. We aren't all in easy chairs, or being judgmental, or being duped by faith leaders. Many of us are thoughtful, caring people, who genuinely seek to do better. Our faith helps us be reflective and helps point to ways that we can be positive influences (coaches). I have atheist friends...who do amazing charity and kindnesses...We respect each other and share our world views with each other, listening with interest. The difference is...I pray, read scripture, sing hymns. I'm no good at skiing...or fixing or building things...so this is what I do. And it is part of the fabric of my being. I don't want to apologize for it, so I'm not....just expressing something that has been in my head for a while.

 

[paradox3]

We already have atheists in our congregations. The tough fight still is about ministers who are openly atheists.

How many of these atheist clergy folk do you think we have?

Gretta Vosper once postulated a very high percentage ot them. Richard Bott conducted a survey of all ministry personnel and the results suggested just the opposite.

Gretta and her supporters were highly critical of the survey design, I remember that.

 

[Luce NDs]

How many of these atheist clergy folk do you think we have?

Gretta Vosper once postulated a very high percentage ot them. Richard Bott conducted a survey of all ministry personnel and the results suggested just the opposite.

Gretta and her supporters were highly critical of the survey design, I remember that.

Are atheists like hidden, Gnostic, buried, or otherwise deep because of the high handedness? Brings on the concepts of hammers, nails and annihilation ...

There is even a chapter that states that Mary went profound ... what a pool; priorly stated ... water above and below ... good for flushing, purging, etc. Hiaw ata derived from higher wadis ... mixed tongues flow and disperse ... dismissive? I believe not ... neither in edifices and monumental constructs for false honor ... pride or other profane activities that are not for common good ... vernacular? Social speak that is different from that pushed by power!

 

[chansen]

How many of these atheist clergy folk do you think we have?

Gretta Vosper once postulated a very high percentage ot them. Richard Bott conducted a survey of all ministry personnel and the results suggested just the opposite.

Gretta and her supporters were highly critical of the survey design, I remember that.

OK, let's see what Richard said about that survey:

“While how they believe and what they believe is wide and varied, almost 95 per cent of the United Church ministers who responded to the online survey were clear — they do believe in God,” Bott says.

Douglas Todd: Instead of Gretta Vosper's atheism, clergy choose alternative views

“How can you have a good, friendly discussion about God, or anything, if you don’t understand terms?," says Vancouver Rev. Richard Bott.

vancouversun.com

Think about that for a second.

It wasn't the most scientific survey, but it still suggests that over 5% of United clergy do not believe in God.

Conservatively, let's say there are 3000 ministers. (https://united-church.ca/sites/default/files/united-church-statistics-dec2019.pdf)

Extrapolated, that means there are approximately 150 United Church ministers who do not believe in God.

That's quite a number. Not impressive as a percentage, but as a number? Yeah.

And do you think clergy would over-report as believers, or under-report?

 

[paradox3]

I think clergy would be honest on an anonymous survey. What they would be willing to say publicly could be another story.

 

[chansen]

@chansen I respect your views most of the time. From what I can gather, you are an admirable coach. But I do feel that your negative view about all aspects of the United Church in particular, and the Christian faith in general is lopsided. We aren't all in easy chairs, or being judgmental, or being duped by faith leaders. Many of us are thoughtful, caring people, who genuinely seek to do better. Our faith helps us be reflective and helps point to ways that we can be positive influences (coaches). I have atheist friends...who do amazing charity and kindnesses...We respect each other and share our world views with each other, listening with interest. The difference is...I pray, read scripture, sing hymns. I'm no good at skiing...or fixing or building things...so this is what I do. And it is part of the fabric of my being. I don't want to apologize for it, so I'm not....just expressing something that has been in my head for a while.

I was more referring to unsafe and anyone in her church who is like-minded. I actually like the United Church, when their social media people aren't banning me for questionable or made-up reasons. You guys should be the bulwark against loss of faith from the more extreme churches. You've not taken that obvious opportunity seriously. That's my main criticism. I'd rather you were more successful. I've said that many times.

What I see from unsafe is extreme interest in the thing she's selling, and zero interest in who she is selling that thing to. I used skiing as an analogy, because I excel at teaching it and connecting with young people while I coach the sport. Along the way there are lessons in things like kindness, humility, confidence and edge angles. I am way better with kids than I am with adults. I would make a great Sunday School teacher, because I'm not trying to sell a love of skiing - I'm providing an experience and an environment that is fun, and that love of sport and their improvement is a consequence of the experience they have.

I think that's a pretty good explanation of why I'm successful with young people. Also, I've got some of these kids 2 storeys high in the air, which, granted, is a thrill that won't transfer to a church basement, unless you throw them off the church roof.

I hope my enthusiasm for what I do with young people comes through the screen. If the people you entrust with young people aren't this engaged, the results will be predictable. I have reasons to be negative about the United Church of Canada, but I don't think that's my overall opinion.

Though, full disclosure, some of your people are boring as hell.

 

[chansen]

I think clergy would be honest on an anonymous survey. What they would be willing to say publicly could be another story.

Was it completely anonymous? I can't recall.

And still, that's 150 atheists in pulpits. People lost their collective s**t over 1. And they're supposed to be happy about 150?

 

[paradox3]

Was it completely anonymous? I can't recall.

That's how I remember it.

And still, that's 150 atheists in pulpits. People lost their collective s**t over 1. And they're supposed to be happy about 150?

For me it depends on how these individuals are leading their congregations.

 

[unsafe]

As I said many times -----Godless people trying to Preach a Spiritual God Given word ----anyone can be admitted into a Seminary School and have Godless hands laid upon them and say ------
Your Qualified to go forth and Teach God's Spiritual Word in any Church you wish ----while their hearts are so Hardened toward God ----it is just a BIG FAT JOKE !!!!!!!!

So Laughable and so Disturbing at the same time ------

So many Wolves in Sheep's clothing in the pulpits today ------

And God has a Grave warning for Godless people who are Godless Ministers ----sending their Flock straight to HELL

AI Overview


James 3:1, which warns, "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly".

This verse cautions believers against assuming the role of teacher due to the significant responsibility and stricter accountability that comes with guiding others' spiritual lives, emphasizing humility, diligent study, and right conduct, as teachers can lead people astray if they teach incorrectly.

Key Points from James 3:1

Stricter Judgment: Teachers face a higher standard of judgment because their words have a profound impact, potentially causing others to stumble in their faith.

TAKE NOTE -------Responsibility: The verse highlights the serious responsibility of teaching, requiring deep knowledge, integrity, and humility, not just a desire for influence.

Big One to Note here Folks -----------Calling, Not Just a Job: While not discouraging teaching altogether, it frames it as a serious calling for the few God equips, rather than a casual position


Big ONE HERE FOLKS ------------Correct Teaching: It's a call for anyone speaking on spiritual matters to be diligent in understanding the Bible to avoid leading people into error,

I say -----
And the Big ERROR is when you Die and BOW BEFORE GOD -----and He CONDEMNS You -----and you say ---BUT GOD ___I WAS ORDAINED and I FOLLOWED ALL YOUR COMMANDS -----
I Preached your word and visited the Sick and helped the poor ------

and JESUS SAYS _____

I Never Knew You​

’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

and you are banished to the PIT along with all your followers​

 

[chansen]

And God has a Grave warning for Godless people who are Godless Ministers ----sending their Flock straight to HELL

This is great. Never stop.


Aside: This is exactly why I could never suggest Luce be silenced. If you can threaten people with hell, why can't you confuse them a little? It would be inconsistent. And because this forum is sorta based around the topic of Christian faith, and telling people they're going to hell is perfectly acceptable in some Christian circles...I don't know how you allow one and not the other without being a giant hypocrite.

And please don't ban the threats. They are comedy gold.

 

[chansen]

For me it depends on how these individuals are leading their congregations.

Does that mean not talk about it?

Also, it should be noted that:

In addition, his survey found that “a large number, almost 80 per cent, affirm belief in a ‘supernatural, theistic God.’”

Douglas Todd: Instead of Gretta Vosper's atheism, clergy choose alternative views

“How can you have a good, friendly discussion about God, or anything, if you don’t understand terms?," says Vancouver Rev. Richard Bott.

vancouversun.com

So that means over 20% of United Church ministers do not believe in a ‘supernatural, theistic God.’

Do the math. That more than 600 ministers if Richard is accurate.

600 freakin' United Church ministers do not believe in a supernatural, theistic God. The media focus for years was on one. How believers can point to this survey like it's some sort of confirmation of homogenous beliefs among UCCan ministers is wild. OK, Gretta exaggerated with the 50% line. It's still more than 20%. That doesn't show a lot of faith in God, so to speak. It's more than a chink in one's armor of faith. It's more like an entire helmet is missing.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is "supernatural" close to the word episteme: sometimes defined regarding knowledge, understanding and science ... if you can observe it beyond blind circumstances.

Words like this are generally beyond vernacular and thus just "out there!"

Few grasp anything off the edge ... unless perhaps they stumbled over it!

 

[Luce NDs]

Many pious determinates totally swear off science and observation ... particularly under the order of the tree of knowledge!

Bad branches I'd say ...

 

[paradox3]

About this theistic, supernatural God. It's what we used to term "classical supernaturalism", right? Before we made the linguistic leap of logic and started saying Theistic God?

The 80% figure doesn't worry me a bit.

Among the 20% we are sure to find pantheists. Probably panentheists. And agnostics who are committed to following the Way of Jesus.

Maybe a few atheists, too.

 

[chansen]

Sure, but they have no one to pray to. The hymns don't work. The dunk tanks are now just dunk tanks.

Think of 5 United churches around you. Chances are, one is lead by someone who doesn't believe in a theistic God. There is a 1 in 4 chance that one doesn't believe in any god at all.

My point is, how was that survey ever supposed to be good news for believers? And if 1 in 5 ministers are like this, it follows that more than 1 in 5 members likely feel similarly.

This can either be a problem or an opportunity. Or maybe it just means 1/5 of you have punched your tickets to hell.

Smoking or non-smoking? Ha, that was a joke. It's all smoking, of course. (Monty Python, iirc)

 

[WhyCzar]

Big ONE HERE FOLKS ------------Correct Teaching: It's a call for anyone speaking on spiritual matters to be diligent in understanding the Bible to avoid leading people into error,

Today, Israeli historian Yuval Harari said at the World Economic Forum that artificial intelligence will eventually take over all religious texts.

He predicts that AI will control every major world religion, including Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

If granting ultimate authority to words rather than to people:

“What happens when the greatest expert on the Bible is an AI?”

 

[BetteTheRed]

I am openly non-theistic. But I lead a progressive theology group, attend a weekly bible study, and I was the chair of the Faith Formation & Christian Education Team until I resigned, feeling I had done my bit.

I couldn't tell you what my minister's personal beliefs about "God" are, but I can see the good action that arises from them - care for the poor, the ill, the disadvantaged and very interested in how social justice initiatives can alleviate real suffering in a society.

 

[unsafe]

“What happens when the greatest expert on the Bible is an AI?”

AI SAYS

AI lacks the essential human elements of a personal relationship with God, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, wisdom, and empathy, which are fundamental to faith formation.

I say ---So I don't think AI will be doing the Holy Spirit's Job of being an expert on the Bible and giving people the Rhema word -----which is giving the Spiritual meaning behind the Logos word -----

and---I say
God knows exactly what humans technology is here on His earth now and how far He will let it go before He Raptures His Saints and bring His Horrible Wrath down on His wicked unbelieving earth for 7 years to clean His earthly house once and for all --
AI Will be set A FIRE as will this whole earth -----

Malachi 4:1​

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble.
The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.

2 Peter 3:7​

But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

 

[chansen]

“What happens when the greatest expert on the Bible is an AI?”

You could, hypothetically, create an AI "pastor" and stream his (it's gonna be a man) sermons around the world in multiple languages. This pastor would be available for 1-on-1 spiritual guidance any time of the day or night. For a fee, of course. It would be the grift of the century.

I guarantee someone is working on this right now. It makes too much sense and is potentially far too lucrative for this not to be a thing in the near future.