The Trinity (but not how you see it.)

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Waterfall said:
So a congregation (or some in it) that experiences God during a service are hallucinating and numbers don't count for verification, only in something you can see or touch?
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Experiencing God's a matter that transcends mere physical senses. Our faith's grounded in Scripture, which affirms that God's present with us in ways that aren't always tangible.

In the Bible, we see instances where people exrience God’s presence. These experiences are genuine encounters with the divine, facilitated by God the Spirit.

God’s presence can be felt in ways beyond our human grasp.

I value the importance of communal worship and the collective experience of God’s presence.

Our experiences of God during worship are rooted in our faith and Scripture's witness. I trust in God the Spirit to guide these experiences, both individually and collectively.

Grace and peace
 
Mendalla said:
Not saying they are hallucinating, I am saying that you cannot count it as scientific evidence. THat is, it's not an experiment or observation that you can repeat reliably to confirm the hypothesis that it is God that was experienced. If you want to present it as subjective, experiential evidence, by all means do so. But don't be upset that not everyone accepts that kind of evidence. Again, that's my agnostic position: that there is no way to OBJECTIVELY, SCIENTIFICALLY prove God's existence and that it is a matter of subjective experience and faith.
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Thank you for raising this important point. I acknowledge that God's existence can't be proven through objective, scientific means. Our faith's indeed a matter of personal experience and belief, rooted in Scripture and God the Spirit's witness.

Faith goes beyond what can be empirically verified. It enters the realm of trust of the unseen. Science operates within the limits of what can be observed and measured. God’s existence, lies beyond these limits.

Our faith's not based solely on subjective experience. It's also grounded in the Church's historical and communal witness, the Good News's transformative power, and the lived experiences of believers throughout history. It's through these means that we come to know God's reality in our lives.

Grace and peace
 
Doctors denied women's experiences for many years because they had not experienced what women experience. They still deny that people, mostly women, are having legitimate experiences of dis-ease because they predetermined dome other cause.

None of us can know what other people are experiencing. I do not claim that my experiences of the Holy Mystery are proof of the Holy Mystery. I do not try to get other people to believe what I believe. I do not deny other people the legitimacy of their experiences for them.

For someone to claim that my experiences are illusions without any proof of that is an example of arrogance.
 
I did not claim God as filling the unknown spaces in scientific knowledge as that is probably wrong. I just want people to acknowledge that science is in the business of explaining as best as possible what has been observed, not in declaring what is not possible.
 
Atheists have no credible answer to creation miracles like that experienced by Bruce Van Nata when the jack failed as he was working under the truck, crushing his torso to less than an inch, destroying 5 arteries, his intestines, and his spleen:

bruce van natta youtube - Search Videos

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First, 2 angels helped llift the truck enought to remove his body from under the truck.
Then, Bruce Carlson, who had met Van Natta only once, felt called to go to Wisconsin and lay hands on him.
Van Natta instantly felt what seemed like millions of volts surging through his body as new small intestines and a new spleen were miraculously created,
His 5 doctors citrd a study that found no survivors just from the severance of those 5 ariteries--in short, a miracle. When Bruce shared his testimony with us, he pulled up his shirt to show us the massive scars that covered the entirely; of his lower torso as a result of multiple surgeries performed to prolong his life.
The frequenc;y of such healing miracles makes skeptics' demans for replication under controlled conditions seem silly and inappropriate.
 
Mystic said:
Atheists have no credible answer to creation miracles like that experienced by Bruce Van Nata when the jack failed as he was working under the truck, crushing his torso to less than an inch, destroying 5 arteries, his intestines, and his spleen:

bruce van natta youtube - Search Videos

Watch videos instantly on Bing—enjoy direct playback, discover related clips, and dive into trending content all in one place.
www.bing.com www.bing.com

First, 2 angels helped llift the truck enought to remove his body from under the truck.
Then, Bruce Carlson, who had met Van Natta only once, felt called to go to Wisconsin and lay hands on him.
Van Natta instantly felt what seemed like millions of volts surging through his body as new small intestines and a new spleen were miraculously created,
His 5 doctors citrd a study that found no survivors just from the severance of those 5 ariteries--in short, a miracle. When Bruce shared his testimony with us, he pulled up his shirt to show us the massive scars that covered the entirely; of his lower torso as a result of multiple surgeries performed to prolong his life.
The frequenc;y of such healing miracles makes skeptics' demans for replication under controlled conditions seem silly and inappropriate.
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Thank you for sharing Van Natta’s story. It’s moving to hear about such experiences of faith. Wonders like these testify to God's power in our lives.

Such stories reinforce the strength that faith can provide. It’s graspable that these experiences are transformative, offering hope.

Let's approach stories of wonder with respect for everyone's beliefs. The impact they have on people's lives is undeniable.

Thank you again for sharing this testimony. It reminds us of the deep ways in which faith touches lives
 
Mendalla said:
Short version? UCCan minister ordained in the twenties not long after union. He grew up Methodist since that branch of the family originated in Wales. Served three charges that I recall, all in Southern Ontario. Served as president of Hamilton Conference in the 50s and 60s (I know he presided at the dedication of my family's church and was involved in starting St. Paul's College at the then-new University of Waterloo, both in that capacity). Finished his ministry as Secretary of the Division of Ministry, Personnel, and Education at UCCan head office. He held a B.Div., MA in philosophy, and ThD (Doctor of Theology). Haven't read the ThD thesis but his Master's thesis was on Kant. Also some honourary doctorates from a few universities, mostly ones with UCCan affiliate colleges that he helped found.

After retirement edited and partly wrote a series of books of daily devotions (edited the series but wrote less and less himself as the series went on), helped Emmanuel College with fundraising including guest preaching at churches to raise awareness, became involved in a number of projects related to ministry to seniors. And was a very active, involved grandparent to boot (well, active as he could be given distance and busyness). And a very thoughtful, intellectual minister of a generation that seemed to value that in a minister maybe more than people do today.

We had some good conversations once I started taking courses in university on philosophy and religion. As far as science goes, he read Hawking's Brief History of Time the Christmas before he died and inherited that copy along with other books from his collection (I was the only family member interested in the theology and other more intellectual works). All our conversations on the subject, which happened frequently since various fields of science were pet interests of mine, tended to be around science and faith/theology as complementary rather than competing.
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Thank you for sharing your grandfather’s story. It sounds like he was a dedicated person, both in his ministry and his personal life. His journey from a Methodist upbringing to becoming a significant figure in the UCCanada, and contributing to institutions, is inspiring.
I
t’s great to hear about the conversations you had with him, especially on topics that bridged your shared interests in philosophy, religion, and science. Those moments must've been special for both of you. It’s clear that his curiosity left a lasting impact on you.

Your grandfather’s ability to balance his professional responsibilities with his role as a grandparent speaks volumes about his character and dedication to his family. His legacy continues to live on.

It’s touching to see how you cherish the books and memories he left behind, and how they continue to inspire your own journey. Thank you again for sharing this tribute to a remarkable man
 
Pav said: The thing exists. Or it is unknown if the thing exists or not. it being believed or probable is moot at this point.

In a domain where we sense that we exist and deny others that right does this develop a non existential spot in where we are as those eliminated folk are now beyond us in our process of awareness? The thought of awareness may even creep a denier into the realm of negligence because of their urge to be delinquent in empathy (said to be a forms of feeling that's beyond your thoughts) and thus possibly an emotion ... this can drive some forces to make something of nothing when all alone ... an abstract? Said to be dark and mysterious in some domains ...

What kind of spot is your domain crushed into (referred to as rendering and grind)? Gamma Mass is a very large dark spot ... the massively unseen, as some scientists observe in their traditions ... regard-Eaze ... rest easy looking ... don't touch! It could bust out ... like bubbles in the brae in function ... these gases must be vented ... thus heavy breaths! Because of the massive uncertainty ... by those that acknowledge the vast unknown facets ... some acknowledge "nothing" and thus are stuck in this hole ... anonymous and psychoneurological lye isolated from integral thought ... they just couldn't get beyond ide ...

Given those traditionally established and unmovable they are the hard signs to interpreted because of what they've accumulated ... common wealth providing the alternate with deficiency ... thus the alternate conspiracy that bother's some people deprived of empathy that may expand into entropy and the hidden loop that reestablishes all that was lost ... and this thing entropy is dark ... like a heat sink ...
 
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jimkenney12 said:
For someone to claim that my experiences are illusions without any proof of that is an example of arrogance.
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How so you are the one claiming they are real, yours is the burden. It is not arrogance on their part, to not believe you had these experiences.
Without you providing evidence for them. However, it is arrogance on your part, to claim they are real.

If someone came up to you and told you he was just talking to a creature from Venus. Would it be arrogance to think he may have been mistaken, was daydreaming, or even having a hallucination?
No! It wouldn't. He is making a claim that needs to be proven to be taken seriously.
 
In some traditions it is said that the only thing that's real is in mine(d) but none one has identified the mind as anything but unreal ... an abstract! It is a very dark mystery given how many have observed it ... really!
 
Pavlos Maros said:
How so you are the one claiming they are real, yours is the burden. It is not arrogance on their part, to not believe you had these experiences.
Without you providing evidence for them. However, it is arrogance on your part, to claim they are real.

If someone came up to you and told you he was just talking to a creature from Venus. Would it be arrogance to think he may have been mistaken, was daydreaming, or even having a hallucination?
No! It wouldn't. He is making a claim that needs to be proven to be taken seriously.
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They do not have to believe me. They just need to say they do not believe me.
 
They say (a sector) the human psyche is non existential ... if someone told you they were talking to them selves ... what would be your response.

Would you have one if you never faced yourself? The vision might be rough, or ruagh ... disturbing for some to see themselves the way they are ... and authorities claiming no questions! That's establishment, or edifice! Stone position ... unable to change with some exchange ... of intelligence Poof .... gone ...
 
I once ran into a hole to hide because I had nothing to defend me other than this shadowy item ... it was a dark resolution and my opposition feared going there ... thus the abstract (something as incomplete as incarnate). Can we complete the enigma?

Not just here and now ... we do not have the resources as they were processed into prodigal matter ... a waste!
 
I will try to explain this very simply. Experiences are perceptions by individuals based on their senses. Sometimes those experiences are shared with others, though each individual, human or animal or plant will have different perceptions. Beliefs are explanations of those experiences. No one can know exactly anyone else's experience. Observations may be subjective or objective and are the information individuals take from their experiences.
 
jimkenney12 said:
I will try to explain this very simply. Experiences are perceptions by individuals based on their senses. Sometimes those experiences are shared with others, though each individual, human or animal or plant will have different perceptions. Beliefs are explanations of those experiences. No one can know exactly anyone else's experience. Observations may be subjective or objective and are the information individuals take from their experiences.
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Believe that my faith provides a framework to grasp experiences.

Scripture teaches me that the truth of God’s word remains constant. My beliefs help me to make sense of my experiences and guide me in my daily life. Through friendship, I support others in our journeys.

Observations are valuable as they contribute to my grasp of God’s creation and my place within it.

May we continue to seek wisdom through the guidance of God the Spirit
 
jimkenney12 said:
No one can know exactly anyone else's experience.
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Which is why sharing experiences and expecting people to flock to one's faith because those stories are "proof" doesn't always work. You're not guilty of this but some Christians are. Trot out some story, maybe from a book or maybe something that happened to them or their brother or a friend of a friend of their second cousin, trumpet how it expanded the teller's faith and imply that it should do the same for the listener.

Each of us is free to accept or not these stories and incorporate them to our lives as they choose. If Christians want to share faith experiences, great. I'm game to hear them. But they shouldn't come with the expectation that they are going to change my life the way they changed the teller's. It's very much in the realm of individual experience and one's faith shapes how one reacts to that experience. Some of those amazing stories of faith are actually only amazing if you already have that faith and have no real impact on a non-believer.
 
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