The Trinity (but not how you see it.)

[Waterfall]

Which is why sharing experiences and expecting people to flock to one's faith because those stories are "proof" doesn't always work. You're not guilty of this but some Christians are. Trot out some story, maybe from a book or maybe something that happened to them or their brother or a friend of a friend of their second cousin, trumpet how it expanded the teller's faith and imply that it should do the same for the listener.

Each of us is free to accept or not these stories and incorporate them to our lives as they choose. If Christians want to share faith experiences, great. I'm game to hear them. But they shouldn't come with the expectation that they are going to change my life the way they changed the teller's. It's very much in the realm of individual experience and one's faith shapes how one reacts to that experience. Some of those amazing stories of faith are actually only amazing if you already have that faith and have no real impact on a non-believer.

That's what Jesus said too.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

That must have been hard for anyone before cell phones..
.lol
I remember the photos shot at Fatima by the press, July 13th, 1917.....Miracle of the Sun.
Many unbelievers were present that day too.

Forgive me for the "laugh" emoji. But that was all it deserved.
It’s a hilarious example of believers being gullible when they should know better.
So let's suspend reality and say that they saw what they said they saw. What is the explanation for that?
Is it? They saw some lights dance around due to heat stroke. Or they saw the Sun dance around.
What do you think is more likely? I don’t know about you, but knowing what the Sun is, it’s not likely at all.

 

[Waterfall]

Forgive me for the "laugh" emoji. But that was all it deserved.
It’s a hilarious example of believers being gullible when they should know better.
So let's suspend reality and say that they saw what they said they saw. What is the explanation for that?
Is it? They saw some lights dance around due to heat stroke. Or they saw the Sun dance around.
What do you think is more likely? I don’t know about you, but knowing what the Sun is, it’s not likely at all.

I wasn't there, so I don't know what it was....and neither do you.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I will try to explain this very simply.

Make it extremely simple cause I won't understand unless you do. Your condescension is showing, lol.

Experiences are perceptions by individuals based on their senses.

Senses can be easily fooled. If you don't have proof that what you believe your senses are telling is true, then it can only be deemed subjective and as such a mere belief.

Sometimes those experiences are shared with others, though each individual, human or animal or plant will have different perceptions.

Irrelevant! Unless they can be proven to be real.

Beliefs are explanations of those experiences.

Exactly, which makes them useless, unless they can be proven.

No one can know exactly anyone else's experience.

I won't make this simple however, if the perceived experience can not be explained and verified in the real world. Then it must remain a subjective experience, a belief.
Simply because you can not prove it is anything other than that.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I wasn't there, so I don't know what it was....and neither do you.

Well Lol. We can be sure it wasn't the Sun doing a dance. Unless the Sun is prone to do a dance routine, from time to time, that is.

 

[Luce NDs]

Which is why sharing experiences and expecting people to flock to one's faith because those stories are "proof" doesn't always work. You're not guilty of this but some Christians are. Trot out some story, maybe from a book or maybe something that happened to them or their brother or a friend of a friend of their second cousin, trumpet how it expanded the teller's faith and imply that it should do the same for the listener.

Each of us is free to accept or not these stories and incorporate them to our lives as they choose. If Christians want to share faith experiences, great. I'm game to hear them. But they shouldn't come with the expectation that they are going to change my life the way they changed the teller's. It's very much in the realm of individual experience and one's faith shapes how one reacts to that experience. Some of those amazing stories of faith are actually only amazing if you already have that faith and have no real impact on a non-believer.

Trot out your experiences ... expect them to be questioned for resolution!

Then some read things and believe them ... without question!

Any questions? Given the stuff laid forth there should be a multitude ... because folks are tuned to the mistruth! Observe how they follow the shroud of Don 've Auld ...

 

[Luce NDs]

Well Lol. We can be sure it wasn't the Sun doing a dance. Unless the Sun is prone to do a dance routine, from time to time, that is.

The sun does go around regularly ... disappointing those that believe the flat theory which makes the go around theory difficult to envision ... leading to incisions and deep cuts in the budget! Powers despise common wealth getting around ...

 

[Waterfall]

Well Lol. We can be sure it wasn't the Sun doing a dance. Unless the Sun is prone to do a dance routine, from time to time, that is.

It was described also as the sun seeming to fall after making a colourful display or dancing...the crowd of 70,000 were told to expect a sign that day. Sceptics explained it as mass hysteria...many claimed they saw it, some didn't.
Who knows....the crowd was filled with news reporters also.

 

[jimkenney12]

Make it extremely simple cause I won't understand unless you do. Your condescension is showing, lol.

Senses can be easily fooled. If you don't have proof that what you believe your senses are telling is true, then it can only be deemed subjective and as such a mere belief.

Irrelevant! Unless they can be proven to be real.

Exactly, which makes them useless, unless they can be proven.

I won't make this simple however, if the perceived experience can not be explained and verified in the real world. Then it must remain a subjective experience, a belief.
Simply because you can not prove it is anything other than that.

I believe you are confusing experience and event. Experience is what people's senses communicate. An event generates the experiences. Right now I am experiencing variable shifts of temperature on my skin along with variable pressure changes. The event is variable breezes blowing across me. The experiences are interpretations of data provided to my brain by by many sensory neurons.

 

[jimkenney12]

If I seem condescending, it is because you do not seem to understand what I thought I was communicating in ordinary language. Please go back to my post about doctors disrespecting what women report to them.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

It was described also as the sun seeming to fall after making a colourful display or dancing...the crowd of 70,000 were told to expect a sign that day. Sceptics explained it as mass hysteria...many claimed they saw it, some didn't.
Who knows....the crowd was filled with news reporters also.

Who was there is completely irrelevant, the sun doesn't dance. Nothing more needs to be said.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I believe you are confusing experience and event. Experience is what people's senses communicate. An event generates the experiences. Right now I am experiencing variable shifts of temperature on my skin along with variable pressure changes. The event is variable breezes blowing across me. The experiences are interpretations of data provided to my brain by by many sensory neurons.

Well, I did say make it extremely simple cause I won't understand unless you do. Lol.
If you are experiencing let's say goosebumps that is an objective thing. but if you are experiencing a vision then that is subjective and needs to be proven. So it can only be deemed to be a belief. A hallucination or a dream is totally subjective you can feel all sorts of things in those states, even pain. Also If you take someone's attention away for a painful moment they don't feel it. How do you know what your body is actually feeling, is an experience and not a simple manifestation of the brain?

If I seem condescending, it is because you do not seem to understand what I thought I was communicating in ordinary language. Please go back to my post about doctors disrespecting what women report to them.

That was probably because you are trying to equate the experience of sick women in the past, and god believed subjective experiences. They are simply not the same thing.

 

[Mystic]

Who was there is completely irrelevant, the sun doesn't dance. Nothing more needs to be said.

You don't understand the distinction between subjective beliefs and rational beliefs.
Thus, in the case of Marian apparitions, you overlook;

(1) the fact that Mary promised to appear to the Spanish children on that decisive day at Fatima and kept that promise
(2) tha astounding coincidence that even the thousansa of skeptics present conceded that they witnessed something astonishingly paranormal on the PREDICTED day
(3) that the validity of sites of apparitions of the Virgin Mary is often confirmed by miracles. Let's consider the case of Lourdes.

A staff of medical specialists is stationed at Lourdes to obtain medical records of those healed to identify through medical records cases of healing miracles for which there is no medical explanation such as spontaneous remission. Y
Yin countless healings there, the beneficiaries don't bother to subject themselves to such medical investigations and just go home, thanking God for their miracle. For example, consider Mary Maguire's testimony of how her faith at Lourdes eventually allowed God to heal her of incurable advanced multiple sclerosis:

lourdes miracle testimonies mary maguire - Search Videos

www.bing.com

If you had the integrity to even watch this testimony, I suspect it would change your life. But I'm confident that you lack the educated curiosity to even consider miracles that summon you from your myopic atheistic Ghetto. So my goal is simply to elicit another nervous giggle emoticon that signals your inability to season your penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor.

 

[jimkenney12]

Well, I did say make it extremely simple cause I won't understand unless you do. Lol.
If you are experiencing let's say goosebumps that is an objective thing. but if you are experiencing a vision then that is subjective and needs to be proven. So it can only be deemed to be a belief. A hallucination or a dream is totally subjective you can feel all sorts of things in those states, even pain. Also If you take someone's attention away for a painful moment they don't feel it. How do you know what your body is actually feeling, is an experience and not a simple manifestation of the brain?

That was probably because you are trying to equate the experience of sick women in the past, and god believed subjective experiences. They are simply not the same thing.

I do not recall mentioning God in any of my posts on this topic. Hallucinations are experiences.

In 2010 I had my first experience of aura. It was my most dramatic and longest lasting event. I thought I was having a stroke. The doctor explained what I experienced. The visual centre in the brain creates the experience for unknown reasons. Seeing the band of shifting colours can be quite an interesting and almost delightful experience. I know the colours and other effects are not real, but they are still a real experience. Their beauty can be enjoyable and interesting even though the eyes are not really seeing them.

Our awareness of experiences is located in the mind which mostly or completely does this through the brain. Visions are real experiences even when a product of the mind. Interpretations of experiences can be rightly challenged.

 

[Waterfall]

Who was there is completely irrelevant, the sun doesn't dance. Nothing more needs to be said.

Of course the sun doesn't dance or seem to....but aren't we often shocked when we hear reports from Voyageur 1 that don't fall into the " laws" of what we know? This story is not to make you believe, but to demonstrate that some people can believe that the people at Fatima had a shared experience, based on the numerous testimony.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

I do not recall mentioning God in any of my posts on this topic.

Gods, demons, devils, ogres, elves, ghost, aura's, etc etc.... All the same thing, subjective.

Hallucinations are experiences.

I never said they weren't, they're just subjective experiences.

Visions are real experiences even when a product of the mind.

I would not say that. However, they are "believed" to be real.

Interpretations of experiences can be rightly challenged.

So we are on the same page then. Especially when they have no objective basis.

 

[Pavlos Maros]

This story is not to make you believe, but to demonstrate that some people can believe that the people at Fatima had a shared experience, based on the numerous testimony.

There is no evidence for that, sorry. There are only as you call them testimonials. That is not proof that a thing happened, it is only proof of the emperor's new clothes.

And just as a sidebar: Mystic replying to me is laughable, nothing he says is worthy of my time.
Its far too out there, in woo-woo-land to even entertain.

 

[Jaebius]

Gods, demons, devils, ogres, elves, ghost, aura's, etc etc.... All the same thing, subjective.

I never said they weren't, they're just subjective experiences.

I would not say that. However, they are "believed" to be real.

So we are on the same page then. Especially when they have no objective basis.

In addressing the matter of such subjective experiences, let's ground our grasp in Scripture.

Let's exercise discernment. We must test the spirits to see whether they're from God.

Hallucinations and visions must be weighed against the objective truth of God’s Word. I hold that Scripture's the ultimate authority. Any experience that contradicts it must be challenged

 

[Pavlos Maros]

In addressing the matter of such subjective experiences, let's ground our grasp in Scripture.

Sorry Jae that would be completely and utterly stupid. What could/would be gained in the real world by doing that?

Let's exercise discernment. We must test the spirits to see whether they're from God.

But god is as subjective as the experiences. So again what would be gained in the real world by doing that?

Hallucinations and visions must be weighed against the objective truth of God’s Word.

Why? You would gain nothing by doing it!

I hold that Scripture's the ultimate authority.

Well, goody for you.

Any experience that contradicts it must be challenged.

In reality no!
However, if it is a subjective experience, the have at it.

 

[Jaebius]

Sorry Jae that would be completely and utterly stupid. What could/would be gained in the real world by doing that?

But god is as subjective as the experiences. So again what would be gained in the real world by doing that?

Why? You would gain nothing by doing it!

Well, goody for you.

In reality no!
However, if it is a subjective experience, the have at it.

Thank you, Pavlos, for sharing your views with me. I grasp that our viewpoints may differ, and I'm thankful for the chance to discuss this with you.

From my standpoint, grounding our experiences in Scripture's essential because it provides a consistent and objective framework for grasping truth. Personal experiences are inherently subjective and vary widely from person to person. By comparing these experiences to the Bible's teachings, I believe we'll discern what aligns with broader, timeless truth.

You mentioned that God and these experiences are subjective. For believers like myself, faith in God's based on a friendship and trust in his Word, which we see as a reliable guide for life. Testing experiences against Scripture helps ensure that our beliefs and actions are rooted in something we consider to be inspired by God and enduring.

For me, this approach provides clarity in a world full of experiences. I hope this explanation helps you grasp why I hold this view, even though we don't agree on the matter. Peace