"The Reverend ..."
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Mrs.Anteater
Just keep going....
I am guessing its the same as “ The Honorable ....” , or “ Your Majesty” and isn’t it “ The Moderator” of the United Church?
The is a definitive article ... for those determinate ... quite separate in linguistics from the "a", "aus", etc. that is indeterminate as we accept the unknown with a state of interest in learning of the misty Ide!
Combines two dark side to create a spark ... recycled SOL by half measures? The genetic effect is unpredictable ... be prepared for failure and collapse of any extreme (polity)? Could be white lightening in the mystical tree ... cho quan? The vast code speaks to us ...
Something to mess with with care in tent ... the covet'd space may be under a tree of unknown attributes ... devil takes all?
Combines two dark side to create a spark ... recycled SOL by half measures? The genetic effect is unpredictable ... be prepared for failure and collapse of any extreme (polity)? Could be white lightening in the mystical tree ... cho quan? The vast code speaks to us ...
Something to mess with with care in tent ... the covet'd space may be under a tree of unknown attributes ... devil takes all?
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
So, the explanation I find in multiple places is that "Reverend" takes the definite article because it is an adjective modifying the name rather than a noun like "Doctor". OTOH, an article from the Baltimore Sun suggested that was a relatively recent thing (19th century) and that prior to that it was treated the same as "Doctor". OTOOH (On the other other hand), Reverend precedes Doctor when someone holds both titles (as a lot of UCCan ministers seem to) and the argument for that is, again, that Reverend is an adjective modifying "Doctor" and the name. That article in the Baltimore Sun cites Merriam-Webster as stating that using the definite article with Reverend is “a matter of etiquette more than linguistic propriety.” IOW, as I read that, grammatically either is correct and it comes down to addressing the person as they and their tradition requests. Personally I don't see "The Reverend" used much today save maybe for very senior clergy like an Anglican/Episcopalian Archbishop. Mainline Protestant clergy (including UU) that I know going back to Granddad have always seemed okay not using the article.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
This is actually the best of your analogies. "Honorable" (and "Right Honorable" for that matter) is an adjective modifying either the name or, in some cases, "Member" so takes the definite article as in "The Honorable Member for Kicking Horse Pass".
revsdd
Well-Known Member
The Moderator of the United Church (if ordained) is "The Right Reverend." Ordained former moderators are "The Very Reverend."
One difference between "Reverend" and "Doctor" is that doctor is a statement of educational qualification, whereas reverend is an honorific; it's more ontological, and points to a person's functional position and role within a community of faith.
The term "The Reverend" by the way is also used (although not commonly) in Judaism by some cantors or leading lay people in communities that don't have a rabbi.
Carolla
wondering & wandering
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Interesting article (no pun intended!) @Mendalla. I"m most acquainted with United churches who are more casual in their language forms ... so it strikes me as unusual when I see this used. It makes me think there is more emphasis on hierarchy, knowing one's place, formality etc.
I understand also the use of the Rev. Dr. to denote education - some people I know seem to emphasize this, and for others it's not so much of an event, and they pull out the Dr. qualification only if publishing or needing to be clear on their qualification.
When I was using the term Doctor in my example in the OP, I was actually thinking of a physician, not a PhD or a reverend. "Doctor" in that case denotes role, as well education I suppose.
I understand also the use of the Rev. Dr. to denote education - some people I know seem to emphasize this, and for others it's not so much of an event, and they pull out the Dr. qualification only if publishing or needing to be clear on their qualification.
When I was using the term Doctor in my example in the OP, I was actually thinking of a physician, not a PhD or a reverend. "Doctor" in that case denotes role, as well education I suppose.
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Examining my own usage of it, I find I tend to alternate "the Rev" with "Rev Susan", depending on my audience. In person, it's often Susan. Or my dear, "ducks", hon...
revsdd
Well-Known Member
Over the years I've been called Dr. Davis, Rev. Davis, Reverend, Pastor Davis, Pastor Steven, Rev. Steven, The Rev., Steven, Steve, Boss, Hey You, and a few things I can't mention here because children can read these pages.
Display of the word: "ineffable!" Sometimes the most effective expression of what's ineffable ... is to split wood or pound nails as ONYX! Backward XYNO's (unknown Y naughts). It's another nothing ... alternate to the aboriginal ... hear a thump in the knight ... duck, or timbre!
Pinga
Room for All
GeoFee, that surprives me that you don't like sharing your message from a pulpit.
I'm thinking that you don't mind preaching, it is the idea of being behind a pulpit that is not attractive.
Am I understanding correctly?
Pinga
Room for All
I see this list from @revsdd , and I am curious about the usage of Pastor.
I'm wondering what people's thoughts are of the title, as compared to Minister. As in. "contact Pastor Steve", vs "contact Rev Steve" or "contact Rev Davis"., or "steve is our pastor" vs "steve is our minister".
What do you like best? Which feels more "right" for United Church of Canada, if anything does.
As a minister, what do you prefer?
revsdd
Well-Known Member
Personally, if a title must be used (and some prefer to use a title - either clergy, a completely unbiblical term by the way, referring to themselves or parishioners referring to their clergy) I prefer "pastor." Biblically, "pastor" designates a particular office to which certain individuals are called and for which they are gifted. Whereas the word "minister" isn't used in that sense anywhere in the Scriptures.
I suspect many United Church people will react against "pastor" because it tends to be associated with evangelical Christianity.
Pinga
Room for All
@revsdd . thank-you for that explanation. I do struggle with shifting to the word Pastor which is the preferred term used by our minister pastor.
Your words help me to understand the choice. Was never anything that was big, just one of those that i would do what i do above. type ref or minister, then have to correct myself.
Your words help me to understand the choice. Was never anything that was big, just one of those that i would do what i do above. type ref or minister, then have to correct myself.
GeoFee
I am who I am becoming...
I very much enjoy sharing my insights orally. I no longer use the pulpit because of its historic symbolic elevation of clergy. I also do not prefer the title reverend because of its suggestion of being revered. Something I do not see in the communication style of Jesus. I do value the term pastor as it connects with the notion of being a shepherd who cares for the sheep.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
While I do agree with the points made by @GeoFee and @revsdd in favour of "pastor", I do also see it being potentially problematic in more ways than just the association with the evangelicals.
A shepherd (pastor) does not take direction from the sheep or seek wisdom in the sheep. A shepherd guides the sheep in a particular direction, even using trained dogs to more or less scare them into line. Which is more in keeping, I think, with the more autocratic variety of ministry we see in some churches that I do not think is really the ideal in this day and age.
So a lot rides on how you understand the role of the "pastor" and I can see why progressives in particular might object to it beyond just the traditional association with more conservative churches.
In UU'ism, while ordained ministers are entitled to use the title "Reverend", I don't find it widely used to actually address them. They may be listed as Rev. So and So on the sign and in the bulletin, but it's pretty much first name basis and the congregation is generally swift to remind the "pastor" who is in charge if they try to "shepherd" people.
A shepherd (pastor) does not take direction from the sheep or seek wisdom in the sheep. A shepherd guides the sheep in a particular direction, even using trained dogs to more or less scare them into line. Which is more in keeping, I think, with the more autocratic variety of ministry we see in some churches that I do not think is really the ideal in this day and age.
So a lot rides on how you understand the role of the "pastor" and I can see why progressives in particular might object to it beyond just the traditional association with more conservative churches.
In UU'ism, while ordained ministers are entitled to use the title "Reverend", I don't find it widely used to actually address them. They may be listed as Rev. So and So on the sign and in the bulletin, but it's pretty much first name basis and the congregation is generally swift to remind the "pastor" who is in charge if they try to "shepherd" people.