The Rev. Vosper Again

[paradox3]

Communion-type meals are not just a Christian thing, though. Communal meals, ceremonial or real, exist in many traditions. The Jewish seder is a well-known one. Mitraism had a communal meal celebration very like communion. We UUs have "communion" rituals of various sorts. So I would counter with, "Why not have it?" It's a common practice across many traditions.

Odd, sure, but if your church is really as diverse in its expression as is claimed, an oddity here and there shouldn't be a big deal, should it?

Not a big deal to me, personally. But I am curious now just what they are celebrating in this "meal" they have. Perhaps the community aspect of their gatherings.

 

[Luce NDs]

Is God as an all encompassing love dead in the church and thus a great host is looking for escape ?

Thus maybe love is dead in the church and due to blind organizing we can't see it ...

Does that fit dark, mysterious, and before our brute passions kicked in ... ante up?

It is said there are thongs we have to face in the light of emotional-intellectual conflict and cause thought to drop into the large abyss ... unseen knowledge?

 

[Luce NDs]

I don't think she's all that popular among her ministry peers. The person that I know who was on the review doesn't like her; I can tell, although professionalism has been strictly maintained. However, I know quite a few church ministers, and although I'd say that none of them believe as she does (even I don't; I have a sense of the numinous in nature and in relationship that I think she may lack), I have a fairly good idea that many of them have considerably less theistic beliefs than might be required to be in "essential agreement" with our various and sundry Articles of Faith.

Is numinous like gas lite off from a cowed inert state of a seized state of knowledge? Thus we'll not bud out well in this night blossoming ... sort of like wax flowers (cereus flower drumming).

Water gas is an interesting study ... encompassing CO and methane ... copt NG? This is found in the stone of 3 literary traditions connecting some old linguistics ... Rose-ET as it ... some pedagogery required! Blooming knowledge where naivete was expected?

 

[Luce NDs]

That, I very much doubt.

Cover Ups and blanketing are very popular ... so the populace won't know what exactly is going on ... adds to general confusion and chaos required in passion!

Thought, knowledge and cognizance are another type of chaos ... confusing those against observation and vision ... especially in the realm of what could be ... thus allowing for blindness! If going that way carry a torch ... there could be some legacy to ignite ...

 

[Luce NDs]

"The Atheists Wager"

If God is Love ... is passionate explosion often irrational? Thus the blowing of the glassy universe!

 

[BetteTheRed]

But I am curious now just what they are celebrating in this "meal" they have.

I'm not pretending to be any sort of expert on her or her congregation, just the couple of times I came across her and her rituals during the Canadian Centre for Progressive Christianity events.

I'm not even sure how different her 'faith' is to ours at a root level. If you consciously replace "God" with "Spirit of Love" in an ordinary liturgy, you'd be more than half way to theirs. So, they are celebrating the spirit of love in community, how relationships transforms lives that touch each others.

There's actually some wilder and more far out ideas in the world of emerging Christianity. The eco-spirituality book we're working through on Tuesday nights (Thomas Berry's The Great Work) suggests that "neighbour" should necessarily include all of the non-human, without preferential treatment for the human. Some of Matthew Fox's ideas on Cosmic Masses, etc., are VERY mystical.

 

[chansen]

It was a bit more than that. I will draw your attention to this line,

"we continue to expect that ministers in The United Church of Canada will offer their leadership in accordance with our shared and agreed upon statements of faith, celebrating the sacraments, and praying that all who are part of the denomination will help people to love, as Jesus put it, “God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” "

emphasis mine, and remembering the conversation about baptism. She does celebrate a communion type meal, but the second sacrament is baptism, and although she offers a "child claiming" ceremony, she does caution parents that it does not come accompanied by a baptismal certificate. I wonder if, as long as she refers the parents to the closest baptizing UCC congregation, that she's done her duty to the sacraments?

It doesn't say that Rev. Vosper has agreed to do that. That's just what's "expected".

That statement toptoed around the subject of Rev. Vosper and the agreement. It was designed to calm down and throw a bone to the crazies who are visibly upset that she gets to stay.

 

[paradox3]

It doesn't say that Rev. Vosper has agreed to do that. That's just what's "expected".

That statement toptoed around the subject of Rev. Vosper and the agreement. It was designed to calm down and throw a bone to the crazies who are visibly upset that she gets to stay.

Agreeing with you as far as damage control goes.

 

[Luce NDs]

Spirit of love ... the essence of something that has almost vapourized in a climate that support war industries more than anything else!

If you build equipment for destructive purpose ... can you loose? The some strange power created M'N kind ... war gods; we green mouldy folk ... calm posting ...

 

[paradox3]

I'm not even sure how different her 'faith' is to ours at a root level. If you consciously replace "God" with "Spirit of Love" in an ordinary liturgy, you'd be more than half way to theirs. So, they are celebrating the spirit of love in community, how relationships transforms lives that touch each others.

Makes sense. Also explains in an odd sort of way why the early days of the theological shift at West Hill went by largely unnoticed.

These days I have decided to be a little more outspoken about the process that unfolded at WHUC. It was a long time ago but I have been revisiting it in my mind in light of recent events. My objection to Gretta's ministry has always been based more on process than content. Had the shift occurred in a more transparent and participatory way, I might even have stayed in the congregation.

Hard to say because Gretta and I also parted company over the issue of Jesus and his place in "progressive" Christianity. Gretta told me once she considers herself & I not very far apart theologically, the major difference being around her reluctance to call herself a follower of Jesus.

I am not a "god as metaphor" person really, but I don't object if it works for others. Jesus as optional or unnecessary in Christianity I have more trouble with.

But yes, celebrating the spirit of love in community through a meal. Why not? Traditional communion services have this aspect to them as well.

 

[Luce NDs]

Jesus is only a twinned metaphor if the image is reflected off the back of the head? The occipital region is dark and shadowy ... we don't know what's in there ... thought toby private ...

 

[paradox3]

No idea what you are getting at @Luce NDs but glad you are following along here.
I have been on FB recently and this place is so much better for conversation with its format & familiar faces.

 

[paradox3]

Yes, that's "creeping congregationalism" but this decision seems to be in favour of that, anyhow. At the very least it seems to be letting WHUC be WHUC.

Have seen a comment on FB that our new regional structure is going to mean more congregationalism.

 

[paradox3]

To my eyes it looks like the Denomination is attempting to distance itself from Toronto Conference. Incongruous, really, when you consider the hearing panel must have okayed the settlement between Gretta, WHUC & Conference.

From comments elsewhere, it looks like the hearing panel had to agree to the settlement worked out between the parties. So to suggest that the national church was uninvolved (as some have done) is not accurate.

Still seems to me there is some dissonance here. But I expect we will be getting on with things soon as the confidentiality aspect of the agreement is going to preclude too much discussion. Gretta and her supporters are jubilant right now but a negotiated agreement is subtly different than a victory.

 

[chansen]

From the perspective of Gretta's supporters, how is this not a victory?

From the perspective of people who want Gretta removed, how is this not a loss?

 

[Luce NDs]

From the perspective of Gretta's supporters, how is this not a victory?

From the perspective of people who want Gretta removed, how is this not a loss?

These things come and go and yet some traditionalists say the wobble doesn't weave well ...

 

[Mendalla]

From the perspective of Gretta's supporters, how is this not a victory?

From the perspective of people who want Gretta removed, how is this not a loss?

Agreed that from these perspectives, it's a win-loss situation. However, agreed settlements are rarely that black and white. They are usually structured to let both sides claim victory. If the UCCan governing folks got some kind of concessions out of her in return for her keeping her pulpit, it may be seen as a win-win from their perspective since they get her off their radar and she gets what she wanted. Sure, there are those who will spin it as loss for the church, but I don't think GCE will be among them nor will Toronto Conference or it's successor region. Mostly, it will be conservative armchair quarterbacks watching from their own pulpits and pews and grumbling.

 

[revsdd]

A few reponses and thoughts:

To my eyes it looks like the Denomination is attempting to distance itself from Toronto Conference. Incongruous, really, when you consider the hearing panel must have okayed the settlement between Gretta, WHUC & Conference.

I'd guess that the hearing panel had nothing to do with this. Their job was to hold a hearing based on a decision of Toronto Conference. If Toronto Conference has reached a negotiated settlement (which has almost certainly been vetted by national legal counsel) then I'd assume the hearing panel simply is no more. Which they are probably relieved about.

Yes, a few people are saying they will leave. I don't hear many people saying this and I am certainly not saying it.

I have yet to receive a call from an outraged parishioner to tell me they're leaving. I don't expect any. I suspect most of our members don't know much if anything about Gretta, don't know much if anything about the hearing and don't know much if anything about the settlement. As I've said many times, Gretta just is not on the radar screen for the vast majority of United Church people. Spending too much time on the United Church Facebook site (or even here) might give the impression that she's big news - but she ain't. Really.

Maybe that's what Reverend Vosper gave up? Perhaps she is not to openly criticize the moderator or the church going forward. After all, it never really was about an atheist in the pulpit, but more about an atheist speaking up from the pulpit.

I suspect you may well be correct. Gretta can continue her ministry at West Hill but is to presumably stop speaking publicly in a way that criticizes the United Church's doctrine or its leaders or that makes vague and unsubstantiated allegations that "many" or "most" clergy agree with her. It's likely something along those lines. Which doesn't mean that she can't advocate for doctrinal change, but that she'd have to do so within the proper channels.

Sure, but as I understand it, there's no rigid formula for the sacrament of communion, whereas, because of ecumenical agreements, ministers must use a clear trinitarian formula as part of the words spoken over the child. Is that a fairly accurate synopsis of the difference between the two?

Not just "a clear trinitarian formula." Baptism must, according to our agreements, be administered "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." That is not optional. Other formulations of the trinitarian God can be included, but the traditional trinitarian language is required.

As for the debate about what constitutes Communion. At bare minimum, I'd say the use of the Words of Institution; a public proclamation that this is being done "in memory of Jesus," as well as an acknowledgement that the bread/wafers and wine/juice are symbolic of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. The recital (in some way) of the story of Jesus and of redemption as a part of the liturgy is normative as a part of the Great Eucharistic Prayer, although the way that's done can vary from liturgy to liturgy. I tend to write a new liturgy for every Communion.

 

[KayTheCurler]

Disagree. I think it says quite a bit. Pointedly even.

While Toronto Conference chose to roll-over. The Denomination is saying that it will be what it has always been.

What does that mean moving forward?

Remains to be seen.[/FONT]

Moving forward will likely mean - carrying on as usual. Therefore it will likely mean a continuing decline in the number of bums in the pews. The number has been slowly but steadily going down for decades. I don't see anything here to perk things up.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I agree. See it in my own congregation. I'm facing the reality that they are dying off in front of me, and although we get a few new young people through the doors, they don't seem to hang around long-term. The music is better, but it's pretty awful.

We have great concerts and a pretty nice sound system, a lovely old grand piano. But we largely stick with 'hymns', and even in a fairly progressive church, many of them are slow and mouldy. If we pretty well stick to More Voices, it's livelier.