the Madonna/ Whore complex

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I don't know what to tell you, Tiana, except that to me it doesn't sound like he's even trying to be respectful. You are quite young, and it sounds like you're pretty self aware. Maybe he's not. But, if I were you realizing all this now, I'd spend some time on your own with good platonic friends your age and eventually you'll find somebody who treats you as an equal with respect. I don't know about the 'daddy' stuff, maybe lots of us are attracted to people who have certain strengths that our parents had...but it's important to realize we are not our parents we create our own dynamic together. There's got to be learning and compromise. There's a big age gap that, although not always a problem, raises a red flag, too. I'd say move on while you're young and don't let your self esteem suffer for this. He's not treating you well.

My husband...miss him like crazy...when I wrote this thread I was trying to figure out what the heck happened and I was really hurting. I still am to be honest but I've since realized there is a lot more to it than some simple pop psychology, and pointing the blame to one side. And every relationship is different. We're twice your age and we were together quite awhile. There was some of the M/W thing going on but there was more to it - I can't put it all on that, or on him - combination of a whole lot of life factors over time. Our problems piled up affecting all areas - especially communication - and we should've gotten counselling sooner, while the will was there and before things got to be too much. In your case, I don't know how much you have invested in your relationship or how long you have been together but I'd say, move on and find someone who's your equal who respects you.

 

[Tiana]

I'm sorry about your husband. I'm glad you have figured out the issues and had gotten couselling. This man leaves me confused. There are things he does that make me happy. Perhaps I like the undivided attention, and us being so passionate with one another. Perhaps I'm so attached to him because he's my first relationship. He's also done things for me but sometimes I feel like it's not as much. I feel like I'm playing the whore and the sugar mommy being a young age of 19. Lol most would think it's the other way around lol. Whores demand something, I don't, all I give is unconditional love. But he's also gave me almost magical memories, and we've met under circumstances that seem almost fated. His lewd comments and brutal honesty make me feel like his bestfriend, and very unladylike. But sometimes it makes me wonder whether that's the reason why his relationships never lasted or why he doesn't get along with many people and therefore is alone with no friends. He's like a child that needs to be taught manners(perhaps he feels like I'm the same way but I need to be taught womanly etiquette lol) But I've never been in such a passionate-seeming relationship. But sometimes I feel like the illusion broke for me yesterday, when he didn't give a damn about other people seeing me or at least made it seem like it didn't, or when he asked me whether some man at UFC is good looking or showed me how attractive she males can be(I'm not homophobic, but superficiality and any sign of a guy being gay turns me off. I'd rather have him be jealous of when I call a guy good looking than have him ask me) etc. Me having daddy issues of my own, I seek having someone to need, protect, and take care of me.

His seeming-passion for me was what led me to stay. He tells me he loves me very much. But I realized something, the other day. I won't find a man with alpha male or honorable qualities in him. He's just a lost child like I am despite his age. My male equivalent. His mom died at a young age and I think all he ever wanted was to be taken care of, a woman going out of her way to please him and almost obsess over him. He's mentioned that he finds it extremely hot of the concept of being with a married woman and the woman bringing him food. It would make him feel like the woman feels that passionate about him that she's thinking of him despite being with her family. (Lol, I'm the girl with daddy issues dating a manchild with mommy issues, what's life? ) He's never been with one though. That's why he demands affection. It has nothing actually to do with him loving me as a person. We're both obsessed with the idea of having someone extremely desire us. I show him through my actions, I'm actually financially better than him despite his age, I'm in uni, I get student loans, and I earn a few bucks here and there(I'm in a business partnership) so I have the ability to do things like travel to his place whenever I want to, or make his birthday wonderful. I want a man to love me and looks like I'm the ultimate pleaser huh, lol. He shows that he desires me through excessive flattery and telling me he loves me and the sexual things we do is fabulous. But sometimes I can't tell his inability to keep his hands off me when we are together as passion, or a meaningless sexual appetite that can easily be shown to other women. Sometimes I don't even know who I should be more threatened by, a passionate older nurturing woman, or a hot young girl with sexual experience and untamable sexuality. We've discussed this topic of passion vs him using me for sex, and each time he wins the argument. Now I realize he is also looking to get his emotional needs met by me and someone to take away his loneliness but the question is will he ever be the man I want? The honorable man who'd take care of me, try and meet my needs, protect me from the world, make me feel like a beautiful lady, the whole candle light dinner and everything? I'm guessing not, but it is so hard to leave. It's like I want a fairy tale but I'm addicted to the nightmare.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Well, I regret using the word "whore" - good girl/ bad girl would suffice - even that's a bit off colour. As for being demanding, men can be as much as women. I was trying to describe the dynamic - used in pop psychology -of what happens sometimes in a marriage/ long term relationship when roles get assumed and the dynamic can change - where women are seen as having two distinctly different roles in men's lives sometimes and can't incorporate the two - kind of compartmentalize them - and to be honest, it's not my idea of love. Love, to me, is when you know that when all that passionate intensity and romance is moved out of the way when you have to deal with hard life stuff - that person is still your "BFF", committed to be there through it all, at your best and your worst, in sickness and in health and all that. So much more important to me now than it was 20 yrs ago when I hadn't as many life experiences and responsibilities and no idea what the future looked like. Sure romance and passion is nice once in awhile, but if the communication ceases to be good - if you can't talk about everything, and keep your thoughts and feelings to yourself hoping it'll pass by itself, things are bound to go wrong.

 

[Luce NDs]

O My ...

As an older man somewhat mediated like an old wine/wine these repeating stories ring my belle ... that dark lady within!

Thus I sing of Watermelon Whines ... and the dark containment ...

Reminds me of the Meatloaf presentation on 2 out of three ain't bad!

Three things in life ... physical, mental and emotional and they all must be restrained by the forth ... the unseen future concerns ... (AN in Hebrew as "concern") that might reveal anis anin to the story and its depths the portion that most do not, or choose not to see as directed by militant forefathers that declared presence was all ... no concern for the future ... the life of offspring ... children, grandchildren and beyond ... a closed society of the limited or mortal self!

If physical is not shared with highest aspirations and deepest fears (metaphysics?) there is just nothing to it. What real man shares his deepest fears ... it just doesn't indicate manly power ... no soft spots for a whoa man to rest in ... perhaps heh has no mind atoll? Just an island according to John Donne?

Hows that for cooking up Ayres ... ever heard of the massacre on the Aryan Way ... that road into Rome where 300 wise men were crucified out of free will and desire of brute force of naïveté? That stupid philosophy continues ... like something missing ... defining rapture ... or incarnation (that which isn't) ...

May the unknown bless you Tiana ... with intellect from out of here ... so you will be outstandingly wise in which way you go ... recall it is your free choice ... to do the ominous or the other path ... I say again O'mi!

 

[Lastpointe]

Hi Kimmio, i missed this thread when it was first posted but wanted to say I am sorry to hear your marriage broke up

I hope you are resolving your conflicts over it.

I think it is too simple to put someones issues into a label without a lot of therapy. To me , it is better to recognize, as you said, that relationships are complicated and all parties contribute to that

I hope that most men grow up adoring their mothers but also recognizing their flaws. And i hope the same for most women. Adore your father but keep them in perspective. And as parents i hope we all learn to love our children but allow them to move on to new relationships.

I think each good and bad relationship tells us alot about ourselves. I think it tells us more about ourself than it does others as you canreally only know yourself. And each failed relationship adds to your knowledge and hopefully to not make the same mistake again

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I don't agree with everything you said about adoring mothers/ fathers. That can run into inlaw insecurities. As great as they may be, I think we all want some inlaw boundaries, and to be ourselves without interference. Support is one thing but I never want to compete with somebody's mom. Or for my parter to feel like they need to keep up to my dad - or meet my parents' approval - that's weird to me. He only only needs to care what I think and that's good enough - my parents opinion doesn't matter for "us". It's not like my parents are so full of wisdom anyway. Sometimes I'm more mature and caring than they are. often, believe it or not. They were like children I had to keep in line while planning our wedding because they wanted their own way and didn't want to share. It's very weird to realize your parents are children. Lol, My husband's mom not, she's wise, is really sweet and totally dedicated to family with every ounce of her energy. I am not. I am not a family person. i hate admitting that. It's supposed to be so all important but I don't fit the mold, I don't know how. It makes me nervous. I am much more of a one on one - loyal to one person at a time, and friends are my chosen extended family, type of person. It's sad to me - because I had a big close family when I was a kid but I just don't have it anymore. I don't know how. I can be sweet, depending on who you ask I have "mom" instincts that come naturally, I guess, but I expect an egalitarian relationship, one that's our own. We each had an idea of how it should be but never quite worked it out together. I think we thought we did but we had neglected to talk about some things and things fell apart I miss him. especially now.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I'm far more emotionally attached to my husband than to my parents and would put him first. Even now. If he suddenly called and said he was coming home for Christmas, to heck what my family has to say, if they were unsure after our break up. Too bad. My parents would each put their spouses before me, too. They'd expect me tomalso even if they complained - it's a given. That's the way it's been in my family. I think that he's the other way around. My husband wouldn't have put me before his family. I either fit or I don't, I guess. He thought I fit but I didn't after I had an emotional crash and my insecurities reared their heads. They're pretty comfortable with each other. I didn't "jump in and belong". It's very different and I didn't create the kind of family environment he was missing because I haven't had it since I was 8 or 9. My grandparents were the last family traditionalists of my family and they both died within the year or so after we were married. Very sad. I was quite depressed. That didn't help us form the kind of life we could've had together, either.

 

[Tabitha]

The first set of holidays after a marriage (or a relationship) ends are difficult. At least they were for me. Things feel 'off". It's not how it was and it didn't fit my plans and dreams.
Adjusting to a new reality-in my case-single mom-took time and a fair number of tears along the way.

But new traditions were made, expectations changed and as they say the rest was history.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I'm going to bow out of this thread. I've been ruminating over the past - the ghosts of Christmases past you could say, all kinds of should've could'ves - in the past few days and it's not good for me to put my focus on this, on him, right now - I've been a blubbering mess - going to go buy some egg nog before the store closes - for me.

Tiana, all the best.

 

[Pinga]

Hi @Tiana
I will write what I would say to any young woman who was family or friend who told me of this situation.
1. If you are living with this person, find somewhere else to live, quickly, and get out.
2. If you are not living with him, or when you are no longer living with him, do not accept calls or communicate with him. He has the art of seduction down to a tee. "grooming" is a word that I would use. You may feel you are in control but from the outside, and the little bityou have shared, it doesn't seem that you are.
3. Be safe. Ensure someone you trust is aware of your situation.

Take care, Tiana

 

[Carolla]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I'm going to bow out of this thread. I've been ruminating over the past - the ghosts of Christmases past you could say, all kinds of should've could'ves - in the past few days and it's not good for me to put my focus on this, on him, right now - I've been a blubbering mess - going to go buy some egg nog before the store closes - for me.

Tiana, all the best.

Good decision Kimmio - take care of yourself!

 

[revjohn]

Talk about coming late to the party?

I guess going off-line for most of July and August will do that.

Anyone ever heard of it?

I've heard of it. Don't know that I have ever experienced it.

I think there are still some cultures where this attitude is quite commonly accepted and not seen as a psychological problem.

More of a boundaries issue than a psychological issue I think as it centers around expectations and the desire/need for others to meet those desires.

 

[Luce NDs]

You cannot see these things Rev. John unless having some freedom outside the prescribed boche ...

Out land ish?

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

Talk about coming late to the party?

I guess going off-line for most of July and August will do that.



I've heard of it. Don't know that I have ever experienced it.



More of a boundaries issue than a psychological issue I think as it centers around expectations and the desire/need for others to meet those desires.

I think, after reading my earlier thoughts, it depends on a lot of things. It depends somewhat on cultural expectations - whether that be the individual family culture you come from (I was brought up here but with a feminist single mom in the 80s for the most part who insisted on equality and role compromise - after my dad left she was not going to be a housewife to anyone, come hell or high water - my step dad is very egalitarian about home/ work. And although we don't get along she has some admirable hard earned strengths, very balanced between her home and her work (semi-retired), and my step-dad is also.) My husband does come from a more traditional family where there are different associations with motherhood and family. It's changing a lot there also but women have not nearly reached the level of gender equality - in subconscious attitude - that we have here even though it still lacks a little here - otherwise Trudeau need not make the 2015 point, for example, if there weren't still issues and assumptions. When you grow up hearing and experiencing things you subconsciously assume as common - as we each do - the subtle differences are not necessarily obvious and easy to identify.

Next, it can be a combination of emotional health and physical health not being put first, and any problems in the relationship causing stress such as job, finances, and anything getting in the way of communication when you're too busy dealing with immediate stresses...there's a bit of "grass is always greener on the other side" daydreams, and denial, that get in the way of repairing problems with the reality you find yourself in, and they can push people apart if those stresses build up.

I think it's unfair to expect some kind of "perfect package" human being to be all and everything at all times always - or to put a woman into a role category that she's stuck in due to one's own misplaced or unexamined expectations. Or men, for that matter, but I think the inequality issue is more weighted down on the side of women still.

 

[BetteTheRed]

I've only been married once, and as it unravelled, it became very clear that we had some pretty different ideas of who was supposed to contribute what to a relationship. I have, since then, become very close to my ex-husband's family, and I think my ex-stepmother-in-law is very much the closest to a parent that I have left.

My current relationship (and it's been 20 years, so I guess it's til death do us part in some fashion) was deliberately constructed as a part-time one. We own our own places, and visit as it seems appropriate to us at the time. These days, it's maybe a day a week (partly because his place has deteriorated so badly that I can't be there, plus my own decision to acquire a second dog), but we talk on the phone most days, twice many days.

 

[Luce NDs]

A true relationship is shaky .. uncle wiggly ... considering the overwhelming emotional fiery powers compared to dark thoughts ... oppressed by Roman Roué's ... misplaced literary skills?

The Shadow prevails ... but that is d' aft concern in this domain ...

Present people take their spirits straight up ... no support system considered ... thus the latter fails ...fulsome prison blown!

Down rite ah sum ...