The Joys of John

[paradox3]

Good Morning , All.
I have just been reading the selections from Mark that we will be using in our Good Friday service.

This jumped out at me:

Mark 15:16-20

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 15:16-20 - New English Translation

Jesus is Mocked - So the soldiers led him into the palace (that is, the governor’s residence) and called together the whole cohort. They put a purple cloak on him and after braiding a crown of thorns, they put it on him. They began to salute him: “Hail, king of the Jews!” Again and again they...

www.biblegateway.com

It made me think of the single verse we discussed this week.
John 6:15

Bible Gateway passage: John 6:15 - New English Translation

Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.

www.biblegateway.com

What to make of this???? It makes me wonder about Jesus withdrawing to the mountainside. What exactly was he able to foresee?

Jesus is also mocked by the soldiers in John 19 and called King of the Jews.

 

[unsafe]

It makes me wonder about Jesus withdrawing to the mountainside. What exactly was he able to foresee?

In John 6 --he retreated to the mountain to get away from the crowd who wanted to make him a King to free them from the roman rule -----and to pray to His Father ----I don't think he foresaw anything in John 6 on the mountain -----except maybe He foresaw that He would not be their political King ----

​

I say =====Now in the Garden of Gethsemane --He was able to foresee with great anguish shedding Blood from his brow everything that He had to endure and accomplish for us -----

AI

• Seven Places:
  The blood shed in Gethsemane is one of seven key locations where Jesus shed his blood, each representing a distinct aspect of the atonement. The other six are the whipping post, beatings, crown of thorns, hands, feet, and the cross.

 

[paradox3]

Hey thanks @unsafe. It's been quiet around here today.
I think you are likely correct about this. The reading from Mark sure got me thinking though.

 

[unsafe]

It's been quiet around here today.

Ya ---people I hope are reflecting on this very important event we are able to read about in God's word ----Without this weekend Happening we would all be in Eternal Trouble ----

All Glory is God's

A Very Happy Easter to you and your Family ------and to all here on WonderCafe 2

 

[Jaebius]

Good Morning , All.
I have just been reading the selections from Mark that we will be using in our Good Friday service.

This jumped out at me:

Mark 15:16-20

Bible Gateway passage: Mark 15:16-20 - New English Translation

Jesus is Mocked - So the soldiers led him into the palace (that is, the governor’s residence) and called together the whole cohort. They put a purple cloak on him and after braiding a crown of thorns, they put it on him. They began to salute him: “Hail, king of the Jews!” Again and again they...

www.biblegateway.com

It made me think of the single verse we discussed this week.
John 6:15

Bible Gateway passage: John 6:15 - New English Translation

Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.

www.biblegateway.com

What to make of this???? It makes me wonder about Jesus withdrawing to the mountainside. What exactly was he able to foresee?

Jesus is also mocked by the soldiers in John 19 and called King of the Jews.

See these two passages as part of the bigger picture of Jesus' story.

In Mark 15:16-20, we see how cruel people are. The soldiers mock Jesus, calling Him "King of the Jews," not knowing that he really is the King. This shows his determination to stick to the path laid out for him, no matter what the cost.

Now, take a look at John 6:15. Here, Jesus pulls back to the mountains when the crowd wants to make him king by force. He understands that they don't get what His mission is all about. So, he steps away to pray and refocus on his true purpose. Jesus forsees both the crowd's misplaced admiration and the soldiers' ridicule, but He stays committed to his mission.

Together, these passages remind us that Jesus' kingship isn't what people expect. He retreats to gather strength for the challenges ahead.

This really makes us think about the courage of Jesus

 

[paradox3]

@Jaebius why do you think the crowd's admiration for Jesus is misplaced? They are just reacting to his miraculous deeds which John calls "signs"

It is probably fair to say they don't fully appreciate all that Jesus is about.

 

[Jaebius]

@Jaebius why do you think the crowd's admiration for Jesus is misplaced? They are just reacting to his miraculous deeds which John calls "signs"

It is probably fair to say they don't fully appreciate all that Jesus is about.

The heart of the matter lies in why they admire him and what they hope he’ll do next. They’re viewing Jesus through the lens of their earthly desires without understanding his far greater mission.

Jesus came to invite humanity into eternal life. The signs he does reveal his divine identity and the depth of God’s love. The crowd’s enthusiasm falls short of the full picture of who Jesus is.

It’s humbling. The verse challenges us to reflect on our own admiration for Jesus

 

[BetteTheRed]

I don't pretend to find this high Christology of John attractive or appealing. I struggle with the anti-Semitism.

 

[paradox3]

As I read slowly through John's Gospel, I am taking the view that I am learning about the writer's theology. I am basically putting aside the question of whether or not I believe it.

John offers a different slant on Jesus than the synoptics, that's for sure. And I am finding it to be quite cleverly written.

I understand your concerns about anti-Semitism @BetteTheRed. Even the Roman Catholic Church only reversed its anti-Semitic stance about 60 years ago.

We are probably all familiar with the "Jews killed Christ" kind of anti-Semitism. This has never made sense to me. Even as a child, I thought that if God had preordained the death of Jesus on the cross, someone had to kill Him. Right?

Indeed it is part of the story that the leaders of His own people were threatened by Him. And wanted to eliminate that threat.

 

[Jaebius]

As I read slowly through John's Gospel, I am taking the view that I am learning about the writer's theology. I am basically putting aside the question of whether or not I believe it.

John offers a different slant on Jesus than the synoptics, that's for sure. And I am finding it to be quite cleverly written.

I understand your concerns about anti-Semitism @BetteTheRed. Even the Roman Catholic Church only reversed its anti-Semitic stance about 60 years ago.

We are probably all familiar with the "Jews killed Christ" kind of anti-Semitism. This has never made sense to me. Even as a child, I thought that if God had preordained the death of Jesus on the cross, someone had to kill Him. Right?

Indeed it is part of the story that the leaders of His own people were threatened by Him. And wanted to eliminate that threat.

John's Gospel really gives us a deeper look at who Jesus is.

When it comes to anti-Semitism, it's something we need to talk about. We have to recognize the hurt that some interpretations of the Bible have caused. It's important for us to show Christ's love and unity.

As we think about the story of Jesus’ crucifixion, let’s keep in mind that it's all about redemption. God's real plan for saving us doesn’t blame any one group

 

[paradox3]

John's Gospel really gives us a deeper look at who Jesus is.

John's Gospel gives us a deeper look at who John thinks Jesus is IMO. But I have yet to read it in its entirety so we will see if my view changes.

When it comes to anti-Semitism, it's something we need to talk about. We have to recognize the hurt that some interpretations of the Bible have caused.

Agree. It's possible that the problem started with the translation from the Greek.

The study notes from the NET say that a certain Greek word can mean Jews. Or leaders of the Jews. Or simply Judeans (based on geography)

As we think about the story of Jesus’ crucifixion, let’s keep in mind that it's all about redemption. God's real plan for saving us doesn’t blame any one group

Didn't I say this already? Pretty much?

A similar point can be made about the person of Judas. I recall a previous discussion about this on WC2.

There is even a theory that Judas and Jesus were in kahoots. In other words, Judas was needed to carry out God's will.

 

[unsafe]

There is even a theory that Judas and Jesus were in kahoots. In other words, Judas was needed to carry out God's will.

God has a Plan --He made it before the foundation of this earth ---His Plan is still in play --

God picked the Jewish Nation to be His because they were the least in number

Deut 7:7
Amplified Bible
“The LORD did not love you and choose you because you were greater in number than any of the other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples.


Satan was needed by God to gives us free Choice to Choose good or evil --God planned that -----without Satan there would be only one choice --we would all be dong God's will --puppets on God's string ------no need for God to send His Son to be the bridge back to God -----
Satan was an important component in God's making of His plan -----and he still is --

Cause right from the start before God the Father Created this Earth His Son Coming to shed His blood to take sins away was already planned -----

Judas was planned to be the traitor by God to give up His Son ---so His Plan would come to pass ---

Peter was Planned to be the traitor to knowing Jesus -----so God's plan could play out

The Pharisees hearts were hardened against Jesus and God allowed them to keep their hearts hardened toward Jesus so His Plan of getting Jesus on the Cross could play out ==

Pharaoh in Egypt ---was planned -

Romans 9:17
Amplified Bible
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “I RAISED YOU UP FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE, TO DISPLAY MY POWER IN [dealing with] YOU, AND SO THAT MY NAME WOULD BE PROCLAIMED IN ALL THE EARTH.”

If people think the Bible is full of anti-Semitism ---then they should Talk to God about it cause we the people didn't make the plan to create anti-Semitism ----we just post what the Scriptures say --and if people take it wrongly then that is on them ---in my view

Jesus was a Jew ---and the religious Jewish Leaders went after Jesus and put Him on the Cross because that was part of God the Father Plan before He created this earth ---

And now His plan is to destroy this earth and all wicked people ----and

Watch This ---Save His Jewish Nation in the End -----and all that has to still be played out --God's plan is not Done yet ---

So anyone who sees this plan as anti -Semitism is missing the Agape ==Mercy and Grace that God has for His Chosen Jewish Nation ----if all people see is the anti-Semitism in the Scripture then that is all they want to see --they are not interested in understanding God's real plan to keep His Covenant with His Chosen Jewish Nation ---out of His Agape --Grace --Mercy and Promise to His Chosen Jewish Nation ----

 

[Waterfall]

It's possible that the problem started with the translation from the Greek.

The study notes from the NET say that a certain Greek word can mean Jews. Or leaders of the Jews. Or simply Judeans (based on geography)

That and some say that it wasn't necessarily all Jews that John was against, but more of the way SOME (rather than all of the Jews bearing a collective responsibility) were practicing the faith and certain traditions and of course the rejection of Jesus. Jesus himself argues these points. John believes that eternal life begins in the present ( here and now) when you accept Jesus. (John 5:23) In other words when you except Jesus, you pass from death to life, right now, and not in the future. Rejecting Jesus means you reject God.( Paul teaches this also)
John is not the only book that seems to promote anti semitism, in fact Mathew seems more anti Jewish when he says that the Jews deserve God's vengeance in Mathew 27:25.

 

[paradox3]

@Waterfall
Matthew 27:25 needs to be examined in context.

The people say, 'Let his blood be on us and our children."

They have been persuaded by the chief priests and elders to ask for Barrabas and have Jesus killed. (v.20)

Pilate questions the decision but literally washes his hands of the the whole mess.

The story might be telling us that the people were simply doing their part in the drama. I don't see any suggestion that they deserve God's vengeance.

 

[paradox3]

@unsafe
I see the logic in your most recent post.

It was quite curious in our OT study when God hardened the Pharaoh's heart.

 

[Waterfall]

@Waterfall
Matthew 27:25 needs to be examined in context.

The people say, 'Let his blood be on us and our children."

They have been persuaded by the chief priests and elders to ask for Barrabas and have Jesus killed. (v.20)

Pharoah questions the decision but literally washes his hands of the the whole mess.

The story might be telling us that the people were simply doing their part in the drama. I don't see any suggestion that they deserve God's vengeance.

I don't support that particular view myself ( antisemitism) but along with Mathew telling us that the Roman governor declared Jesus innocent multiple times and then the religious leaders and the people in the crowd continue to demand his crucifixion. (Mt. 27:22-24), poor wording....sets the stage for prejudice with different interpretations, IMO.
In Mathew 23:27-24:2 Jesus makes another prediction that judgement was about to fall and another prediction in Luke 23:27-31.

 

[GordW]

I don't support that particular view myself ( antisemitism) but along with Mathew telling us that the Roman governor declared Jesus innocent multiple times and then the religious leaders and the people in the crowd continue to demand his crucifixion. (Mt. 27:22-24), poor wording....sets the stage for prejudice with different interpretations, IMO.
In Mathew 23:27-24:2 Jesus makes another prediction that judgement was about to fall and another prediction in Luke 23:27-31.

HOwever I have no problem believing that the Gospel writers skewed the account to make the Romans seem less culpable and therefore Christ/Christians as less of a threat to the Empire.

 

[unsafe]

It was quite curious in our OT study when God hardened the Pharaoh's heart.

Yes and that particular scripture has to be researched cause God softens hardened Hearts ---He doesn't harden peoples hearts ----Adam and Eve's sin are the cause of our hardened hearts not God ----

We already have Hardened hearts toward God as we are born with a sin nature and we are shaped in iniquity in the womb ----So Pharaoh's heart was already hardened towards God -All God did was allow him to keep his already hardened heart ---hardened ---so God could bring His plan into play -----God Could have softened Pharaoh's heart when Moses went to him the first time and ask him to free the Israelites but God Chose to allow his heart to stay hardened ---

 

[paradox3]

HOwever I have no problem believing that the Gospel writers skewed the account to make the Romans seem less culpable and therefore Christ/Christians as less of a threat to the Empire.

Possibly. If this is true, the whole NT narrative can be read a little differently. Were the Pharisees really plotting all along to kill Jesus, for example?

It makes sense to see Jesus engaging in debate with them. Or even being at odds with them. But were they really seeking to have Him executed?

Seems extreme. But OTOH the Jewish leaders had a very tenuous peace with the occupying Romans. And Jesus might well have threatened that with his various ideas about reforming the status quo.

 

[paradox3]

John 6:25-58

Bible Gateway passage: John 6:25-58 - New English Translation

Jesus’ Discourse About the Bread of Life - When they found him on the other side of the lake, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?” Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, you are looking for me not because you saw miraculous signs, but because you ate all the loaves of bread...

www.biblegateway.com

Now we come to a long discourse by Jesus about his own nature. He explains that God's requirement is to believe in the One God sent.

He claims to be the true bread from heaven. The bread that He will give for the life of the world is His flesh. The ones who eat His flesh and drink His blood will reside in Jesus and Jesus in them. These ones will live forever. Jesus will raise them up on the last day.