The Joys of John

[paradox3]

@Mendalla
That is exactly the problem if everything turns on correct belief and ignores the question of how to live out one's faith.

It actually doesn't bother me as much as the idea that one receives the indwelling Holy Spirit as a result of correct belief.

 

[Mendalla]

correct belief.

Of course, being who I am (an agnostic UU with a philosophical leaning), the whole concept of "correct belief" is a problem for me. Belief is inherently about untestable premises and conclusions so there cannot be a "correct" one in an objective, external sense. The "correct" belief is the one that works for you, making belief subjective and internal. And in that scenario, a diversity of beliefs is actually beneficial in that a diverse environment provides more opportunities to learn about other beliefs and have your own challenged.

 

[unsafe]

I think it was Marcus Borg who suggested "trusting" in Jesus was a useful way to look at "believing" in him. It alters the verse a bit. If we trust someone we are more likely to follow that person's teachings, I think.

Believing and trusting are really separate things here but really are in need of each other to bring what is promised here to pass ------I can believe that God gave His only Son that he who believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life ----but not trust that what God is saying here in John 3:16 will be the case -----

AI

In a spiritual context, belief is accepting something as true, while trust involves reliance and confidence in that belief, even in the face of uncertainty or doubt.

 

[unsafe]

It actually doesn't bother me as much as the idea that one receives the indwelling Holy Spirit as a result of correct belief.

Why does a correct belief in God's Son to obtain the indwelling of the Holy Spirit bother you ?

How would you like God to distribute His Holy Spirit ?---

 

[paradox3]

If God is going to judge us on our beliefs, wouldn't God be most interested in how those beliefs inform our lives?

Say God is partial to belief in His Son. Wouldn't God be asking us how Christ-like we managed to become?

 

[paradox3]

Why does a correct belief in God's Son to obtain the indwelling of the Holy Spirit bother you?

It just seems too petty to me.

 

[paradox3]

I figured today's topic might be a tough one to discuss.

How does everyone react to the opening phrase of John 3:16?

For God so loved the world. . .

It reminds me of a repeating line in a hymn from an Easter cantata. Couldn't say which one.

 

[unsafe]

If God is going to judge us on our beliefs, wouldn't God be most interested in how those beliefs inform our lives?

God doesn't Judge anyone here ---God Loves all people with all their Baggage -He gave us free will to choose -----your Judgment comes after you die -----God has provided His Word and what will happen but He leaves it up to us to decide for ourselves ------IF---- we want to Believe and Trust in what He says in His Word ==or --IF--we Don't want to believe and trust in His word -----that is our choice ----

What forms our life is our own believe and Trust in His Word or unbelief and distrust in His Word ----- we form our own life and beliefs and trusts here ----not God -----so we can't blame God for our choice ----God has sent out in His Word what our destiny is after you leave this world ---- up to us where we end up -----

 

[unsafe]

It just seems too petty to me.

Petty means
of little importance; trivial.

So you think that having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is of little importance or is trivial -----so that is a choice you make ---and when you pass on God will deal with your Choice ----but know that it is your choice in this world ----and God is not responsible for your choice --you are ----We Reap what We Sow -----

From Google
Meaning of karma in English(in Buddhism, Hinduism, and some other religions) the force produced by a person's actions in one life that influences what happens to them in future lives:

 

[unsafe]

How does everyone react to the opening phrase of John 3:16?

For God so loved the world. .

God does Agape everything He created -----but we Humans messed His Perfect world up ---but His Agape prevails over His Flawed World and Humans -----God Agape never ceases -----but it won't save you in the end ---

 

[paradox3]

Petty means
of little importance; trivial.

So you think that having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is of little importance or is trivial -----

No. That's not what I said at all. I said it seemed petty for God to bestow this indwelling spirit based on belief.

 

[unsafe]

No. That's not what I said at all. I said it seemed petty for God to bestow this indwelling spirit based on belief.

the indwelling of the Spirit is not based on Belief -----it is based on your receiving Jesus as your Lord and Saviour ----and the Father sends the Holy Spirit to dwell in the person -----

You can believe in Jesus but not receive Him as your Lord and Saviour ----

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,

 

[paradox3]

the indwelling of the Spirit is not based on Belief -----it is based on your receiving Jesus as your Lord and Saviour ----and the Father sends the Holy Spirit to dwell in the person -----

You can believe in Jesus but not receive Him as your Lord and Saviour ----

Could you please explain what it would mean for a person to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, in that case?

Is it the same thing as being Born Again?

 

[unsafe]

Could you please explain what it would mean for a person to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, in that case?

Ya Sure --first you have to have the right Faith (Belief ) inbirthed in you -----and through this right Faith --(belief) you Believe in your Heart that Jesus is Lord and that He was Raised from the dead ----so that is your Belief stage ----

Note :---------And this Belief is not just a fly by night belief ---it is deep rooted and grounded Faith and trust and Adhering to His Word belief ----

but you haven't Receive yet what you Believe ----So you now need a positive response to what you believe to actually lay hold of your belief ------

if you don't actively Receive what your say you believe ---then you have not Received it ----

Greek word to receive

Strong's Lexicon
lambanó: To take, receive, obtain

lambánō ----, meaning "actively lay hold of to take or receive,"

– properly, to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available (offered).("accept with initiative") emphasizes the volition (power of using one's will).(assertiveness) of the receiver.

I say -------So what is the positive response to accepting Jesus in your heart ------you speak out confess with your Mouth ---Jesus is Lord and He was raised from the Dead ----then you receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ----who is sent to you by the Father ----

​

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth,​

Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I say------ When you have full confidence --(Faith) in a thing you will it speak out -----


Example
If I give you a free gift and take it to your house and lay it on the table for you ---your free unearned gift is there ---but if you don't go and pick it up and lay hold of it --then you haven't received your free gift ---it's there for you --but until you actively take it --it remains unclaimed --

 

[Jaebius]

I figured today's topic might be a tough one to discuss.

How does everyone react to the opening phrase of John 3:16?

For God so loved the world. . .

It reminds me of a repeating line in a hymn from an Easter cantata. Couldn't say which one.

"For God so loved the world" is the Good News in a single sentence. God loving this world so much that He gave His only begotten Son.

This verse reminds me that God loves with the kind of love that moves Him to sacrifice, to redeem, to transform!

As for the hymn you're reminded of, you're thinking of "And Can It Be." That line, "Amazing love! How can it be, that Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?" Is a reminder that the love expressed in John 3:16 is deeply personal

 

[paradox3]

@unsafe
So first comes the belief. Then the confessing or declaration of that belief. Then the indwelling spirit aspect.

Still sounds to me like the whole thing is based on holding the correct belief.

And I am still unclear where the Born Again part comes in. I assume it's the same as accepting Jesus into one's heart. Maybe that's incorrect.

I am going to move on in the text but we can come back to this if you like unsafe.

 

[paradox3]

As for the hymn you're reminded of, you're thinking of "And Can It Be."

No, that's not the one.

 

[paradox3]

John 3:22-36

Bible Gateway passage: John 3:22-36 - New English Translation

Further Testimony About Jesus by John the Baptist - After this, Jesus and his disciples came into Judean territory, and there he spent time with them and was baptizing. John was also baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming to him and being...

www.biblegateway.com

The gospel writer gives us further testimony about Jesus by John the Baptist.

I can't help but think John the Evangelist is putting words into the mouth of John the Baptist. @unsafe and @Jaebius will disagree.

Among other things, John the Baptist says that the one who believes in the Son has eternal life.

But here's the really interesting thing about this reading. John talks about Jesus spending time with his disciples and baptizing. (v.22, v.25)

This may be the only time in the NT we see Jesus baptizing. Am I right?

 

[unsafe]

And I am still unclear where the Born Again part comes in. I assume it's the same as accepting Jesus into one's heart. Maybe that's incorrect.

Your born from your parents with a tainted Spirit and corrupt Nature -----your encased in iniquity -----when you receive Jesus in your Heart ---God the Father send the Holy Spirit to witness to your tainted Spirit that now your spirit is reborn and is no longer tained but is Holy Spirit and this change in your Spirit also cleans up takes away your corrupt nature --so you now able to pray to God and be in His presents ----so your Spirit and nature are re Born from Tainted to Holy -------

You are right in that you Need the Right Faith -----when God the Father pulls on your heart to come to Him and you Accept that pull or draw ---then your worldly veil is lifted so when you read or hear God's Word ---it inbirths the Right Faith in you to have your tainted Spirit and Corrupt Nature Reborn to Holy ---

The Right Faith ----that is believing in what you don't see ----when you speak it out ----it has the power to receive -----so again you can believe ---Jesus is Lord and He rose from the dead but not Receive it ----Belief and Receiving what you believe are separate things-----First you Believe ---then you receive by laying hold of what you believe ---

 

[unsafe]

So we see here in John 3;22-36 the Repentance Baptism is carrying on so they are ready to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit later on

A dispute arises over Purification ---this is the same today in our Churches ---always someone is disputing the way things should be run and questioning authority over what they are doing and who has the power to do it --etc ---so Religious disputes have been going on for centuries --

It looks like Jesus was getting big crowds around Him and John's Disciples were getting upset ----but John was telling them that it was OK ---because he is not the Messiah --he is like the best man at a wedding --he is not the bridegroom ----He says all things come from Heaven ---I am to decrease and He is to increase --

Now I say ---that is Spiritual insight ---John says that He who comes from Heaven is above all

Verse 34 says ----AMP B
34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaiming the Father’s own message]; for God gives the [gift of the] Spirit without measure [generously and boundlessly]

I say -----So here we see God the Father giving to His Son the Holy Spirit without limits -----In the Old Testament God Limited the Holy Spirit's impact on the OT Saints ----The Holy Spirit was given then withdrawn ----this is not the case here when Jesus is crucified and resurrected the Holy Spirit will remain in pace for the person who accepts God's Son ----


and these last verses speak very clearly and precise as to the result of us either accepting and rejecting God's Son ----no sugarcoating here ----calling a Spade a Spade ----

36 He who believes and trusts in the Son and accepts Him [as Savior] has eternal life [that is, already possesses it];
but he who does not believe the Son and chooses to reject Him, [disobeying Him and denying Him as Savior] will not see [eternal] life, but [instead] the wrath of God hangs over him continually.”

Our Choice ----our destiny -----