The I Am statements and a different process?

[BetteTheRed]

We are going to try something different for this week’s BPOTW. I belong to, and occasionally lead, a lectio divina group that meets every Wednesday morning. This was last week’s reading, and I’d love to try a virtual duplication of the process.

We read the text three times. From three different versions. (Usually, it’s the NRSV first, the Inclusive Bible second, and the Message third; I may change this because I don’t have The Message available in my library).

We centre each of the three readings on a question.

So, this week’s Lectionary is John 14:1-14 (the famous I Am passages)

The first reading. The question in front of you as you read this text is:

What word or phrase jumps out for you? Or maybe an emotion?

Please read this text: (it happens to be the NRSVUE)

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe[a] in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?[b] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way to the place where I am going.”[c] 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you know me, you will know[d] my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, but if you do not, then believe[e] because of the works themselves. 12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[f] for anything, I will do it.

 

[Luce NDs]

Thus the force of Lexio ... digging out the understanding sacred there in ... what else; word divine as it can have varied understandings!

Thus rendered down as simple but sophisticated ... those tied to reality don't like it as it resembles brain farts ... stinking thoughts?

Damn; it has to be read in Tu's ... that's NU's ... something eliminated by those disturbed by thoughts ... thus it drifts by as an thing on Eyre ... mere essence?

Then there were brain stormers ...

 

[Mendalla]

How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?

This part is the one that really sticks out for me. It kind of summarizes the rest theologically, but it also presents it as a question, challenging the apostles to really say whether they believe that Jesus is the "Father" (God, Creator, whatever the "Father" points to).

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you know me, you will know[d] my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

Often people quote the first part of this, but I think 7 is important, too. "If you know me, you will know my father also" is really an invitation to see God through Jesus while "From now on you do know him and have seen him" really sets up the question I commented on above.

Of course, the whole idea that "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" can be read in a very panentheistic way but not sure that's on topic for this.

 

[Luce NDs]

Diabolical paradoxes cannot be resolved by stoic characters as it Pan s out ... some divine split is the decision ... thus knowledge is separated out ... light objects leaving the heavy subjectivism behind ... in hard essence?

May be some strange presentation of the man called Jack ... odd fellow ... out there wandering! Admit that one might know beta about what's beyond those well set ...

 

[paradox3]

In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. (v. 2)

This is the verse that jumps out at me first. I know the verse from my childhood as my mom often quoted it. In the KJV there were "many mansions".

My mom understood it to mean there are many ways to know God and many ways to live righteously.

I am thinking now of the 23rd psalm:

I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever. (v. 6)

 

[Mendalla]

Of course, the alternative riff is to tie to the later statement about "I am the Way..." and make it read that there is room for all who believe Jesus is the Way...

I think from the standpoint of emotion, the intent in John 14:1 would seem to be that this is meant to comfort them ("Do not let your heart be troubled"), to show that following Jesus is the way. But then it seems to get a bit too theological to really function that way. It's like a minister counselling someone by giving a Theology 101 lecture. And I am not sure that's very comforting. Thought-provoking, but not really what I would expect to follow "Do not let your hear be troubled."

 

[paradox3]

Interesting though @Mendalla that this passage is often read at funerals.

We had it at the memorial service for my mom and I did indeed find it comforting.

 

[Mendalla]

Interesting though @Mendalla that this passage is often read at funerals.

We had it at the memorial service for my mom and I did indeed find it comforting.

In some contexts, I suppose it might work. Just doesn't ring that way to read. And I think it would be more comforting to someone with a Christian faith or, at least, Christian background.

 

[paradox3]

What I don't remember is how much of John 14 the minister actually read. I know he skipped over "No one comes to the Father except by me." (V. 6)

 

[Mendalla]

Perhaps it is due to being an ex-Christian, but I just don't take much comfort from this theology anymore. In fact, I mostly look to philosophy and maybe philosophical poetry for that. In the Bible, Ecclesiastes or maybe some of the Psalms. Here, I see more of a theological statement, suited to a church service moreso than a troubled heart.

 

[paradox3]

In some contexts, I suppose it might work. Just doesn't ring that way to read. And I think it would be more comforting to someone with a Christian faith or, at least, Christian background.

Very important point. Sometimes it's our familiarity with certain passages that makes them comforting.

 

[Mystic]

"In my Father's house are many rest stops (inns" Greek: "mone"). I go to prepare a place for you."

The translation "mansions" or "dwelling places" misses a key nuance of "mone", i. e. that the afterlife is a journey of ongoing progress towards ever more intimate union with God (so Origen, bishop of Caesarea--early 3rd century). Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven and Jesus implies that it is the preferred destination of His followers. Why don't Christians inquire about the first 2 Heavens and the 4th, etc.? These are described in intertestamental Judaism, as well as the heavens beyond the 3rd Heaven. So "Heaven" should be understood in t erms of multi-layed levels. So when Jesus tells His disciples, "I go to prepare a place for you," the implication is that the anticipated temporary lodging begins a journey and is distinguished from other "places" for saints of bygne and future eras.

 

[Mendalla]

Why don't Christians inquire about the first 2 Heavens and the 4th, etc.?

There's the old expression about being in "seventh heaven". No idea of the origin of that or if it relates to this, but the idea of multiple heavens does bring it to mind.

 

[Mystic]

There's the old expression about being in "seventh heaven". No idea of the origin of that or if it relates to this, but the idea of multiple heavens does bring it to mind.

One traditional ancient rabbinic view embraces 7 as the number of heavens.

 

[Waterfall]

"In my Father's house are many rest stops (inns" Greek: "mone"). I go to prepare a place for you."

The translation "mansions" or "dwelling places" misses a key nuance of "mone", i. e. that the afterlife is a journey of ongoing progress towards ever more intimate union with God (so Origen, bishop of Caesarea--early 3rd century). Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven and Jesus implies that it is the preferred destination of His followers. Why don't Christians inquire about the first 2 Heavens and the 4th, etc.? These are described in intertestamental Judaism, as well as the heavens beyond the 3rd Heaven. So "Heaven" should be understood in t erms of multi-layed levels. So when Jesus tells His disciples, "I go to prepare a place for you," the implication is that the anticipated temporary lodging begins a journey and is distinguished from other "places" for saints of bygne and future eras.

Perhaps Christianity has changed this to mean heaven is somewhere outside of us, whereas Judianism or Yeshuism, seeks these different levels of heaven to be found within us? This is how we would see the father (in us) by following Jesus examples.
Preferring the 3rd heaven would be easier to stop there, than to keep going beyond that point, because probably it gets more difficult to be Christlike in this world as one is further challenged. Just saying, maybe these different heavens are different teachings we need to learn and practice to keep growing closer to God and it's available to us now, not when we die.

 

[Waterfall]

" I am the way, and the truth and the life"
Is this an exclusive or inclusive statement?

 

[BetteTheRed]

We had a conversation about this.

It's very different to say "I am the way, the truth, and the life" than it is to say "I am a way, a truth, a life". Interestingly enough, two of my preferred translations at least mix their prepositions (these would be the inclusive and the five gospels), to say "I am the way, and I am truth and I am life".

 

[Mendalla]

We had a conversation about this.

It's very different to say "I am the way, the truth, and the life" than it is to say "I am a way, a truth, a life". Interestingly enough, two of my preferred translations at least mix their prepositions (these would be the inclusive and the five gospels), to say "I am the way, and I am truth and I am life".

But what does the actual ancient text, or best and oldest available copy thereof, say? That's what we must go back to if we want to know the author's intent (which may or may not accurately reflect Jesus' intent).

 

[BetteTheRed]

Well, the Greek actually uses "the"...

But this really points out the amount of subjectivity built into every translation...

 

[BetteTheRed]

We will move onto the second reading, and the second question, when this one peters out.

Any other words, phrases, emotions strike you?