The growing mess that is Iraq

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You have to ask yourself how you might end up where that man and those two children ended up. Where is their mother? Where is the feminine face of Godde in their religion (and ours - we share a God, whose monotheistic Male face holds the seeds of many of our dilemmas)? What sort of cultural tensions creates a reality that makes that behaviour rational to them. No-one does anything that seems irrational from inside their own head. We have to somehow come to grips with that, find the seeds of compassion and forgiveness in every situation. Much of the world's violence can be traced back to the barbaric examples set by people like the Americans in Vietnam. None of our hands are clean, and branding the other as 'other' will never move the situation forward towards reconciliation or tolerance.

Possibly we should be asking Malala for some ideas. After all, there are some common elements to those she faces in Pakistan. Her primary focus is the education of girls; it's a mantra of my hero Stephen Lewis', as well.

We can look around the world and see some places functioning for the well-being of their group better than others. What we should be doing is examining our world for best practices of compassion and sustainability, and using our pulpits to worship Gaia and vow Her protection against the natural greed and hubris of humanity.

We should be abandoning military solutions to any world problem, and focus our intentions and work on accommodating those displaced by conflict and climate change everywhere and not being distracted when our 'leaders' try to push the fear buttons of illegal immigration. What if every church in a city had friendly competitions to see how many refugee families they could help settle in?

So yes, I have lots of imagination about where to start with non-violent solutions to many of the world's dilemmas. And the first question is usually, "how can I serve you?" "What are your needs? What are my needs? How can we meet them all?"
 
BetteTheRed,

that's one of the things I like aboot Scott Atran -- he actually gets to know the people he is studying

Thank g_odness the White House has been employing his invaluable expertise

I heartily recommend his book Talking to the Enemy

Getting to know someone else requires being able to keep out of one's own way, especially when dealing with someone from a different culture
 
BetteTheRed said:
You have to ask yourself how you might end up where that man and those two children ended up. Where is their mother? Where is the feminine face of Godde in their religion (and ours - we share a God, whose monotheistic Male face holds the seeds of many of our dilemmas)? What sort of cultural tensions creates a reality that makes that behaviour rational to them. No-one does anything that seems irrational from inside their own head. We have to somehow come to grips with that, find the seeds of compassion and forgiveness in every situation. Much of the world's violence can be traced back to the barbaric examples set by people like the Americans in Vietnam. None of our hands are clean, and branding the other as 'other' will never move the situation forward towards reconciliation or tolerance.

Possibly we should be asking Malala for some ideas. After all, there are some common elements to those she faces in Pakistan. Her primary focus is the education of girls; it's a mantra of my hero Stephen Lewis', as well.

We can look around the world and see some places functioning for the well-being of their group better than others. What we should be doing is examining our world for best practices of compassion and sustainability, and using our pulpits to worship Gaia and vow Her protection against the natural greed and hubris of humanity.

We should be abandoning military solutions to any world problem, and focus our intentions and work on accommodating those displaced by conflict and climate change everywhere and not being distracted when our 'leaders' try to push the fear buttons of illegal immigration. What if every church in a city had friendly competitions to see how many refugee families they could help settle in?

So yes, I have lots of imagination about where to start with non-violent solutions to many of the world's dilemmas. And the first question is usually, "how can I serve you?" "What are your needs? What are my needs? How can we meet them all?"
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Bette those are long term solutions to prevent extremism and yes I have thought about it, about how they end up that way - great intellectual questions to ponder -I can think of lots of non-violent solutions - similar to yours, actually - but I am also concerned about the innocent people being slaughtered right now by a bunch of armed men who came into their town and started killing. At this minute it's happening over there. Someone is under threat by a very sick person or people. Those long term solutions won't protect them right at the moment. Where's your sympathy for them? Their needs are to stay alive...to not be shot or beheaded right now. Can you even imagine how frightening that would be? In a war zone? It's not like they can just call 911 or something. They need immediate help.
 
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Do you honestly think Bette that I have not thought about the types of things you suggested? Every single one of them. But none of them will help the people faced with violent threat right now. These guys are even more violent and extreme than their predecessors. It could have been prevented with your solutions about 3 years ago...but in that time hundreds of thousands of people, many many innocent people, have been getting slaughtered while the rest of the world did nothing and now we've got crazed rebels who appently want to die in battle for their extremist cause. They, at this point, don't care about their own lives or anyone else's but you care more about them than those they're killing now? I wish that asking how we can help them would solve everything - but they are now crazed extremists who have been endoctrinated and brainwashed. Short of shooting them with tranquilizers filled with ecstasy, which I don't see happening, I don't know how you think you can negotiate rationally with people out looking to slaughter innocents as they've been doing.
 
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Another thing is...they are recruiting people from other countries. It's gone beyond any kind of negotiatiable position about geography or ethnicity - to a religious extreme one that doesn't care about negotiating ...maybe I am wrong. That's possible. I have been wrong before ;) . I deplore war, but I am not sure that people doing what they're doing are in any mind for negotiating. I think the negotiating ship may have sailed already.
 
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Inanna, I giggled most of the way through that! Tawdry jihad indeed!

Kimmio, I'll go back and quote you if you'd like. You were the one who said you could not imagine a non-violent solution, so I imagined for you. As long as you're 'othering' people with words like 'crazed' and 'extremist', you won't be able to move forward in understanding how they got to where they are. Do you think he is another species? That he does not have exactly the same set of needs, from physical/environmental needs to security needs to complex creative needs, that you do?

As long as you think that the 'negotiating ship has sailed', you are asserting that peace through victory trumps peace through justice. Have you seen the film "Admissions"? Seen any of Marshall Rosenberg's work on non-violent communication? Read any of the Tutus' work on Forgiveness? (Desmond is working closely with daughter Mpho at present.) Good places to start. We need a world built like this; we need a critical mass on board.
 
So, here's a practical answer. To start with, "push the people in trouble out of the way." Make way for them to emigrate, temporarily if possible, into neighbouring countries. Spend resources on housing and feeding and educating them. Make them feel safe and welcomed. Then,

Talk to those who have perpetrated violence. Find out why and how they think it will advance their cause. Find out what their underlying needs are. Brainstorm how you can meet them.
 
Righteous indignation & hate are addictive and a social glue, helping with lonliness
Ever notice how a country/tribe is defined by who we hate/dislike?
"We aren't Americans"
"stupid tea partiers"
"lazy welfare bums"
etc etc etc

 
a great canadian


two people who look at what is and try to adapt


start here for totally mainstream goodness


how well is humanity scoring so far?
 
BetteTheRed said:
Inanna, I giggled most of the way through that! Tawdry jihad indeed!

Kimmio, I'll go back and quote you if you'd like. You were the one who said you could not imagine a non-violent solution, so I imagined for you. As long as you're 'othering' people with words like 'crazed' and 'extremist', you won't be able to move forward in understanding how they got to where they are. Do you think he is another species? That he does not have exactly the same set of needs, from physical/environmental needs to security needs to complex creative needs, that you do?

As long as you think that the 'negotiating ship has sailed', you are asserting that peace through victory trumps peace through justice. Have you seen the film "Admissions"? Seen any of Marshall Rosenberg's work on non-violent communication? Read any of the Tutus' work on Forgiveness? (Desmond is working closely with daughter Mpho at present.) Good places to start. We need a world built like this; we need a critical mass on board.
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I'm just saying the people whose homes and villages are being stormed and relatives being killed right now this minute do not have time to ponder- it's a dangerous quandry. I don't think the militants who have been radicalized (and they have) and full of rage can be negotiated with by a friendly "how can I help you". Maybe before they ever get to that point - but if you were in the villagers shoes and this was an immediate threat to you - bunch of dangerous and armed ISIS were threatening you - do you really think you'd have time to intellectualize and chat? I wish it never got so out of control.

I do understand to a point how they got there. They are disenchanted, feel hopeless, lost relatives maybe, feel like they have nothing to live for, they're poor, so they are vulnerable to receuitment...I do understand. But once they have been totally brainwashed to believe they are earning a place in heaven by killing and dying - and they are armed and in groups - how can they be 'negotiated' with under immediately dangerous circumstances. They need time to be de-programmed.
 
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Bette - yes they need to pull people to safety. I believe in forgiveness. But you are assuming these ISIS militants think like you and I do. Right now - what would you suggest someone do about an armed group of them who are on a mission to get to heaven by killing and dying - right this minute - no time to wait - no time to talk to them about their choices - right...now- what would you do? If you were a villager whose life and whose family's life was endanger right now? Would you take the time to sympathize and intellectualize or would you just want the danger to go away? If it were possible to say "let's talk about this" okay...but if they are programmed to believe any attempt to negotiate itself, coming from the people they are to hate, is evil and killing and dying is good...how on earth do you propose that you would be able to protect your family without endangering the militants lives? How? If it were possible, okay - maybe hostage negotiators have skills in this - but what about regular villagers trapped in danger? There is not time to brainstorm if they are firing weapons on your town. From a far we can sit and say that in comfort but we have NO IDEA of the fears faced by the Yezidis and others under immediate threat.

@BetteTheRed you are talking about long term- not immediate danger situations faced by the innocent people this minute. And I agree with you there. It's now that is a quandry. What you are talking about takes months weeks, years - and innocent lives get lost in the meantime.
 
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@BetteTheRed imagine you were there...if someone was threatening your spouse and children's lives right now who would you be more concerned about? Not hurting the militant? Or that your family was safe - there is no time to intellectualize how the militant got that way in that moment. Be honest. I want to see peace restored but by I am also asking the tough questions - the ethical dilemmas.
 
BetteTheRed said:
Inanna, I giggled most of the way through that! Tawdry jihad indeed!

Kimmio, I'll go back and quote you if you'd like. You were the one who said you could not imagine a non-violent solution, so I imagined for you. As long as you're 'othering' people with words like 'crazed' and 'extremist', you won't be able to move forward in understanding how they got to where they are. Do you think he is another species? That he does not have exactly the same set of needs, from physical/environmental needs to security needs to complex creative needs, that you do?

As long as you think that the 'negotiating ship has sailed', you are asserting that peace through victory trumps peace through justice. Have you seen the film "Admissions"? Seen any of Marshall Rosenberg's work on non-violent communication? Read any of the Tutus' work on Forgiveness? (Desmond is working closely with daughter Mpho at present.) Good places to start. We need a world built like this; we need a critical mass on board.
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It's dishonest to say i haven't imagined it. I have. I have thought of the same ideas. It's not a solution. What I said was I didn't think there was a diplomatic 'solution.' It won't solve the problem of violent minded militants now. In the future maybe- not in a dangerous moment. I have read plenty of what Tutu has to say, the Dalai Lama, non-violent communication. I have imagined your ideas. I just don't think they are solutions to THIS. It's nice to imagine but I don't think handing a metaphorical flower to an armed ISIS will work. I came to the conclusion that i am naive to think so. It is not an adequate solution for people under immediate danger by militants who hate them for no good reason, who've been brain washed to believe getting to heaven via slaughtering innocents is a good idea. These guys have no idea about 'rules of war' - they care nothing about UN conventions. We can't converse in Tutu language with them. That's naive. Perhaps we need to better understand cult psychology - but that still won't stop immediate danger to innocents by those who are already far gone in their extreme, violent ideology (it is extremist and violent - be honest) in the moment. If you are faced with men who hate and want to kill you for no reason and don't mind dying - they will not hear you they will not aknowledge your loving efforts. Some people are psychopaths. Some can be deconditioned and care restored, but some are not capable having a conscience for their actions.
 
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Who is talking about handing a metaphorical flower?

Have you read Tutu's recent challenge to the world that economic sanctions should be imposed on Israel? That is a flower? What it is not is a gun. It is an attempt to manipulate a group's thinking towards the betterment of the whole using non-violent means.

Also, who are 'they'? Where do 'they' end and 'you' begin? Where is Godde not? In order to speak the language of peace, you can't speak the language of other.

I'm not trying to be aggressive here, at all, Kimmio. I'm asking you to re-look at your assumptions that the 'other' does not have exactly the same set of needs as you.
 
But, Bette, the problem with an ISIS is, who do you impose sanctions on? If you have specific intel that someone is supplying them, then there is a target. However, if they are operating largely on the basis of stolen/captured gear and being supplied through underground means, then there is no one to impose sanctions on. You can try to choke off their sources but that will, again, require military action. There must be a way to isolate and choke off ISIS rather than bombing the hell out of them but I'll be damned if I know what it is.
 
Early this morning I watched a speech by Angela Merkel to the German parliament, broadcast live by Deutsche Welle TV. In an unprecedented move, Germany decided to supply the Iraqi-Kurdish Army with modern weapons. The evils perpetrated by ISIS are so horrible, Merkel said, that Germany decided to deviate from its policy of never sending arms into a war zone. The Kurdish forces have enough soldiers willing to fight ISIS, but they are not very well equipped. Equipped with modern weapons, and with the US air force assisting them with air strikes, the Kurdish forces are positive that they will defeat ISIS.

The question is, what will a well armed Kurdish army do after ISIS is defeated? Resume their decades-old battle for a Kurdish homeland?

The Iraqi Kurds already have their self-governing autonomous region within Iraq. But the Kurds of Turkey, Iran, and Syria are still persecuted minorities in those countries.

Also, the problem of Islamic extremism remains, even after ISIS is defeated. It think more could and should be done by the Muslim mainstream to curb extremism in the Islamic world. I suspect that there is still much secret sympathy in the Islamic world with those extremists, and that fundamentalist Muslim extremists are covertly supported by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and other oil-rich Arab countries. There should be sanctions against those countries that support militant Islamic fundamentalism.
 
If you expected mainstream Christianity to deal with its extremists, would that be reasonable? Should those of us from more enlightened denoms, hypothetically, be responsible to rein in the fundamentalist U.S. christians who feel compelled to export their homophobia to other (African) nations? I'm afraid that expecting a religion to police itself is a little unreasonable. I would like to see a lot more diplomacy on transparent display at the UN instead of hidden in the back rooms of the powerful.

As horrible as it seems, honestly, I think that after providing a wide clear channel for everyone to escape to safety who can (and the world will never do that, because godde forbid we aid the stranger in need), given that the behaviour of the west is hugely responsible for the mess that parts of the middle east are in now, I think the only thing that can be done is to stand aside and let the people on the ground sort themselves out, all the while trying to dry up the store of weaponry available, and find some channel of communication with someone willing to speak for ISIS/ISIL.
 
No, Bette, I don't expect mainstream Christianity to deal with fundamentalist extremism, but violent fundamentalist excesses in the Christian world did come to an end when they were no longer tolerated by the Christian mainstream and the secular segment of society. I suspect that a good part of the Muslim mainstream is still either openly or secretly supportive of violent Islamic fundamentalism. Islamic fundamentalism, or wabashism (sp.?), is still a powerful force in Saudi Arabia. And the secular segment still has not much of a voice in the Islamic world.

I too would like the UN to function more like a responsible global parliament with a global constitution, a global judiciary, and a global police force to carry out its laws. Globally, we still are pretty much a lawless Wild West, and the super rich and powerful are profiting from this global anarchy, and unlikely to change it. It is up to us, the people, to effect change, locally and globally.

I don't support Germany's export of weapons. They, of all people, should know that disarming the world is a better solution than arming it. I think we need a much stronger UN and a much bigger UN peacekeeping force. Canada once was one of the world's big peacekeepers. Alas, we no longer are!

Yes, the West is hugely responsible for the mess in that part of the Middle East. After WWI, Britain and France arbitrarily carved up the former Ottoman Empire into nations states, disregarding tribal and sectarian boundaries. The West's insatiable thirst for oil, and the inability of fundamentalist tribal societies to responsibly handle their newfound oil wealth, is also a big part of the problem.
 
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