The Consequences of No Religion
- Thread starter Waterfall
- Start date
Welcome to Wondercafe2!
A community where we discuss, share, and have some fun together. Join today and become a part of it!
Seeler
Well-Known Member
Waterfall, you've asked me for my definition of Religion. I'm not sure it sums up all of what I believe religion is but here goes:
Religion is a set of beliefs, and the rituals and practices that follow that belief.
Years ago I ask a professor about the many young people who appear to have no religion, who appear to not believe in anything. He told me that they do have a system of beliefs and that they go something like this: study and work hard, get good grades, graduate, get a good job, make lots of money, become powerful, and then you will be a success and you will be happy. I'm not sure I completely agree with him, but I have seen people set goals for themselves: money, success, power - or physical fitness or sports - or science and reason. Sometimes they pursue these as though they were gods. I have seen people put their country and being good citizens first - and follow rituals required to prove that they would do anything, even die, for their country.
Making something, or some idea, your god and pursuing it is religion.
There are better explanations. These are mine.
And I can't imagine a world without religion.
Religion is a set of beliefs, and the rituals and practices that follow that belief.
Years ago I ask a professor about the many young people who appear to have no religion, who appear to not believe in anything. He told me that they do have a system of beliefs and that they go something like this: study and work hard, get good grades, graduate, get a good job, make lots of money, become powerful, and then you will be a success and you will be happy. I'm not sure I completely agree with him, but I have seen people set goals for themselves: money, success, power - or physical fitness or sports - or science and reason. Sometimes they pursue these as though they were gods. I have seen people put their country and being good citizens first - and follow rituals required to prove that they would do anything, even die, for their country.
Making something, or some idea, your god and pursuing it is religion.
There are better explanations. These are mine.
And I can't imagine a world without religion.
Neo
Well-Known Member
This doesn't sound like something Lennon would say, I'm not sure where you're lifting this quote from. I'm pretty sure Lennon meant to imagine a world without religious denomination and not just a Christian one.
I found this According to the Beatles Bible website:
"The World Church called me once and asked, 'Can we use the lyrics to Imagine and just change it to "Imagine one religion"?' That showed they didn't understand it at all. It would defeat the whole purpose of the song, the whole idea."
- John Lennon
I can't speak for Lennon, of course, but to me it's the organized religions of the world that have caused so much problem and separation in the world with their 'my-god-is-bigger-than-your-god' stance.
Last edited:
airclean33
Well-Known Member
I believe your right here John.
Gods word how ever dose say what is His and were.
Act 7:49 'Heaven is my throne, and earth my footstool. What house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?
airclean33
Well-Known Member
Waterfall said: ↑
Neo what do you suppose John Lennon's definition of "religion" was as it relates to this song?
When asked in an interview with Playboy, what the lyrics meant, John said, he wrote the lyrics for "Imagine" with the concept of positive prayer in mind. He also said," someone gave him a Christian prayerbook and it led to the inspiration of the song. "Imagine" is a prayer, praying for all Christian denominations to come together."
Airclean-- I to believe this Waterfall--I to would like to see the World Christian Church come together as one. My belief is those who walk with Christ are one. airclean33
Neo what do you suppose John Lennon's definition of "religion" was as it relates to this song?
When asked in an interview with Playboy, what the lyrics meant, John said, he wrote the lyrics for "Imagine" with the concept of positive prayer in mind. He also said," someone gave him a Christian prayerbook and it led to the inspiration of the song. "Imagine" is a prayer, praying for all Christian denominations to come together."
Airclean-- I to believe this Waterfall--I to would like to see the World Christian Church come together as one. My belief is those who walk with Christ are one. airclean33
Neo
Well-Known Member
I believe he meant that religion, like countries, fosters an "us verses them" ideology, and that this is antithetical to the idea that we could live as one.
RevLindsG King
Rest In Peace
LIKE THE PROVERBIAL POLICEMAN's lot--the lot of a retired minister in NOT always a happy
==================================================
Herm and others:
When I retired, Jan 1, 1994, from Willowdale UC--the church I started to serve beginning in June 1966. On Jan 2, I was replaced by a professor from Emmanuel--our Toronto seminary--for six months.
Six months later, a new minister, a female, was called to Willowdale. I took it for granted that one of the basic rules--I am not sure what the Manual says--was:
Mr. King, please do not attend your old church, for a year or more. It will give the new minister time to settle in to her new work. Fair enough! I chose to willingly comply. Meanwhile, from my home on Kings Inn Trail, Thornhill, I started visiting united churches York Presbytery. One was so small, it only had services every-second Sunday. I attended there and I offered to help, if asked.
No one, in that church or in presbytery, even offered to talk with me about doing so. Then I visited a very busy church in Richmond Hill area--quite a distance from Kings Inn. That church was very welcoming. They even invited my wife and I to be in the Easter Musical--a great success. However, the snows and storms of winter made it very difficult to get to, sometimes, and to find parking. Because of this, Jean and I chose to visit a church about 15 minutes drive from us.
Both Jean and I were shocked when I got a phone-call from (the minister? ??????????who I will not name) asking me not to attend the Easter Study-Program--your presence would be intimidating! (What #@^%$&^***hypocritic-nonsense!!!!!
Not the kind of welcome that I gave to retired ministers and old friends who came back to WIllowdale, when I was the minister there. As a follower of JESUS, I would be ashamed of myself, if I did.
Needless to say, I was not amused.
BTW, three years after I retired from Willowdale, old friends gave Jean--many were members of the choir she loved to serve with her voice--and me a special invitation to visit. Both of us reasoned: Surely, by we've been in the "wilderness" long enough. The next Sunday, we acted on the invitation.
On Tuesday AM, I got a call from ???? ??????. Mr. King, please make your recent visit to Willowdale UC, your one and only visit. I do not want to see you here, again, OK!
=============================
When a friend of ours heard about this, Jean and I got a warm invitation to attend the church she attended--in the Don Mills area, south of 401, North York Presbytery. We did. We were even allowed to bring members of a study group--people we knew for years--with us. We met in one of the rooms of that church. And warmly, we welcomed any from the church join us. Things went well for some time.
However, things did NOT continue to go WELL! Of course there are many good church-goers, kind people who love serving the ministry of the church and who always welcome new people.
But, regardless of what it says on the signs outside our churches, in the weekly Sunday church bulletins and in the regular newsletters that go out from ministers: There are, unfortunately, certain congregations dominated by those who JESUS, fearlessly called HYPOCRITES--pretend followers.
==================================================
Herm and others:
When I retired, Jan 1, 1994, from Willowdale UC--the church I started to serve beginning in June 1966. On Jan 2, I was replaced by a professor from Emmanuel--our Toronto seminary--for six months.
Six months later, a new minister, a female, was called to Willowdale. I took it for granted that one of the basic rules--I am not sure what the Manual says--was:
Mr. King, please do not attend your old church, for a year or more. It will give the new minister time to settle in to her new work. Fair enough! I chose to willingly comply. Meanwhile, from my home on Kings Inn Trail, Thornhill, I started visiting united churches York Presbytery. One was so small, it only had services every-second Sunday. I attended there and I offered to help, if asked.
No one, in that church or in presbytery, even offered to talk with me about doing so. Then I visited a very busy church in Richmond Hill area--quite a distance from Kings Inn. That church was very welcoming. They even invited my wife and I to be in the Easter Musical--a great success. However, the snows and storms of winter made it very difficult to get to, sometimes, and to find parking. Because of this, Jean and I chose to visit a church about 15 minutes drive from us.
Both Jean and I were shocked when I got a phone-call from (the minister? ??????????who I will not name) asking me not to attend the Easter Study-Program--your presence would be intimidating! (What #@^%$&^***hypocritic-nonsense!!!!!
Not the kind of welcome that I gave to retired ministers and old friends who came back to WIllowdale, when I was the minister there. As a follower of JESUS, I would be ashamed of myself, if I did.
Needless to say, I was not amused.
BTW, three years after I retired from Willowdale, old friends gave Jean--many were members of the choir she loved to serve with her voice--and me a special invitation to visit. Both of us reasoned: Surely, by we've been in the "wilderness" long enough. The next Sunday, we acted on the invitation.
On Tuesday AM, I got a call from ???? ??????. Mr. King, please make your recent visit to Willowdale UC, your one and only visit. I do not want to see you here, again, OK!
=============================
When a friend of ours heard about this, Jean and I got a warm invitation to attend the church she attended--in the Don Mills area, south of 401, North York Presbytery. We did. We were even allowed to bring members of a study group--people we knew for years--with us. We met in one of the rooms of that church. And warmly, we welcomed any from the church join us. Things went well for some time.
However, things did NOT continue to go WELL! Of course there are many good church-goers, kind people who love serving the ministry of the church and who always welcome new people.
But, regardless of what it says on the signs outside our churches, in the weekly Sunday church bulletins and in the regular newsletters that go out from ministers: There are, unfortunately, certain congregations dominated by those who JESUS, fearlessly called HYPOCRITES--pretend followers.
Candy
Member
"What do you think? Are there consequences to "no religion" (non belief in God) for society or for individuals? Or would the world truly be a better place, IYO?"
Ultimately, does it matter what anyone thinks?
People usually have emotional attachment to certain words, like 'religion'. So your question depends on what people think religion is. If religion is where people feel they meet God, then it's taken as a sensitive word to them. Others, like myself, consider the word to mean 'any organization that makes the claim you need Jesus PLUS them to get to heaven'.... rules and rituals to follow to make it there.
Because the first century carpenter was actually against religion. It was one of his most defining characteristics. His first miracle - water to wine - was one where he desecrated the religious vessels (meant for ceremonial hand washing) with the happy juice. It was his way of saying 'Give up your religiosity, and come; have a drink with me.
The uber religious were jealous, and truly believed they were doing God's work when they murdered him. Legalism destroys relationship.
Ultimately, does it matter what anyone thinks?
People usually have emotional attachment to certain words, like 'religion'. So your question depends on what people think religion is. If religion is where people feel they meet God, then it's taken as a sensitive word to them. Others, like myself, consider the word to mean 'any organization that makes the claim you need Jesus PLUS them to get to heaven'.... rules and rituals to follow to make it there.
Because the first century carpenter was actually against religion. It was one of his most defining characteristics. His first miracle - water to wine - was one where he desecrated the religious vessels (meant for ceremonial hand washing) with the happy juice. It was his way of saying 'Give up your religiosity, and come; have a drink with me.
The uber religious were jealous, and truly believed they were doing God's work when they murdered him. Legalism destroys relationship.
Last edited:
Neo
Well-Known Member
I believe only the best of religions will survive the future. And this does not include the "our religion is the only way" ideology. Of course Christians quickly point out the quote from John 14:16, where the Christ says "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me", but I don't see any reference to religion per-se in that statement.
Candy
Member
Hi again Neo. I noticed your tag line is 'There is no religion higher than truth', and I respect that. So have you considered Jesus' claim that HE is the truth?
After all, he didn't say 'I'll show you a way to the truth.', he said 'I AM the truth.'
He said 'I AM the way', he did not say 'I'll show you a way to the way'.
Bold claims, no?
Maybe you should hold him to it? Test the claims?
Seek to find out if it's a true statement for yourself?
Each man's spiritual journey is his own. No one can 'leap frog' off another man's journey. So I bid you good luck on yours. Hope you find what you're looking for.
After all, he didn't say 'I'll show you a way to the truth.', he said 'I AM the truth.'
He said 'I AM the way', he did not say 'I'll show you a way to the way'.
Bold claims, no?
Maybe you should hold him to it? Test the claims?
Seek to find out if it's a true statement for yourself?
Each man's spiritual journey is his own. No one can 'leap frog' off another man's journey. So I bid you good luck on yours. Hope you find what you're looking for.
Neo
Well-Known Member
Have I considered the Christ's claim that He is the truth? Yes, absolutely and I do believe it to be so. It's the Christians and their religious dogma and man-made doctrines that I have doubts about.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
Rev King - I find it shocking that a retired minister would be treated like you describe.
I do see the reason for a retired minister not to attend the church he recently retired from for a year or so to give the new minister an opportunity to get settled in. I also approve of a period between ministers -- perhaps with an interim minister -- to give the congregation time to adjust.
But I would think any congregation would benefit from having a retired minister in the congregation, attending and taking part in all activities as an active member. My home church has a eight or ten retired ministers worshiping with us. One leads a weekly study group on the lectionary, and a bi-monthly group that reads and discusses books (right now we are reading "The Rebirthing of God by John Philip Newell"). Another assists with pastoral care and visitation. And another does occasional pulpit supply, or assists with communion. Others seem content to just attend worship, or take part in social events such as our Progressive Dinner coming up in December.
In another congregation where I was Sunday School Coordinator and taught the senior class, I would go to the retired minister with questions or invite him to visit the class and share his knowledge and experiences (he had once lived and worked in an isolated area in the far north - his wife showed us her grocery list for the winter months).
We need to respect the wisdom of the seniors in our midst.
I do see the reason for a retired minister not to attend the church he recently retired from for a year or so to give the new minister an opportunity to get settled in. I also approve of a period between ministers -- perhaps with an interim minister -- to give the congregation time to adjust.
But I would think any congregation would benefit from having a retired minister in the congregation, attending and taking part in all activities as an active member. My home church has a eight or ten retired ministers worshiping with us. One leads a weekly study group on the lectionary, and a bi-monthly group that reads and discusses books (right now we are reading "The Rebirthing of God by John Philip Newell"). Another assists with pastoral care and visitation. And another does occasional pulpit supply, or assists with communion. Others seem content to just attend worship, or take part in social events such as our Progressive Dinner coming up in December.
In another congregation where I was Sunday School Coordinator and taught the senior class, I would go to the retired minister with questions or invite him to visit the class and share his knowledge and experiences (he had once lived and worked in an isolated area in the far north - his wife showed us her grocery list for the winter months).
We need to respect the wisdom of the seniors in our midst.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Rev King...I am so saddened to hear about your unwelcomes multiple times. I am only a Licensed Lay Worship Leader who visits many different congregations, and I respect their attachments to former ministers and other lay leaders. However, at a recent get-together for LLWL, some very petty discussions about LLWL ensued. I chose to leave half way through and not return because I don't need petty gossip and blanket criticism in my life. The criticisms were for things like: He makes noise when he turns the pages of his sermon! I determined that even Christians have a hard time beating down that beast: Jealousy. Or maybe it's just being overly critical of others. Church leaders have an unenviable position of preparing messages on their own, with prayer and good intentions, and then delivering them without the interruptions of differing viewpoints. I think it can lead to a type of egotism if you are not on the lookout against that. I'm taking a break for the LLWL thing so that I can be the me I feel best about being....the one listening to a sermon!
Neo
Well-Known Member
I think that religions will still have an important role to play on our society. They currently play the role of nurturing stations, keeping alive the idea of a spiritual reality working in and behind our outer lives. In the future, I believe, they will drop the old dogmas and doctrines that don't stand up to the test of time, and become learning centres of philosophy and the esoteric sciences. The hidden and the secret will become exoteric and known, and it'll be up to the churches to keep up and to teach the new sciences of the soul. Those that refuse to let go of the past will themselves pass into the footnotes of history. It will be, I believe, a new Heaven and a new Earth. As humanity rises up in awareness, our goals of Heaven will rise up accordingly. This is what I believe.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
Nancy - I am jealous of you having a group of LLWL's who get together. As far as I know I am the only LLWL in this wide-spread Presbytery. I sometimes feel lonely. (I know that the female ministers in this area get together occasionally to socialize and offer support - but I have never been invited to join them. I know that I am not an ordained minister, but it would be nice to sometimes be invited in.)
I'm disappointed that the group you know is engaging in petty criticism and gossip. There are so many constructive things to talk about. I hope that your group improves and that you feel it worthwhile to try again.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Yes, Seeler, I hope to give it a try again. The getting together was my idea but the leader allowed the negative to seep in. I spoke to him about it afterwards, and he agreed that next time we won't let that happen. Wish you lived around here Seeler. You sound like me...hungering for that kind of community. I guess I just got disappointed when it turned out to be something different.
