The Church Vs. The State Civil Disobedience

[BetteTheRed]

Our current social structures exploit our elders in service to profit. Not without exceptions, but as the prevailing agenda.

And that is not true where long term care is part and parcel of a national cradle to grave health care service, like the NHS in the U.K. I have been SUPER-impressed by the efforts that are made by the state, at minimal charge, to maintain people in their own homes as long as physically possible.

 

[Mrs.Anteater]

Well, you have to be physically alive to have a chance at spiritual well being, unless you are thinking of bringen people quickly into the afterlife.

 

[GeoFee]

No, but I'm suggesting that people who don't die are more likely to recover their spiritual well-being.

Very interesting. I have noticed that death waits for each one of us. The moment is not predictable, though sometimes it’s pattern makes us aware that death is now approaching. We, who have traded our material being for spiritual being, are called to waken others to their spirit being. We do this fully aware that many will refuse

 

[Northwind]

I would say that physical well-being does not produce spiritual well-being. I am thinking of persons in all ages who suffered physically and overcame that suffering by drawing on spiritual resources.

I agree. I'm not saying physical well-being produces spiritual well-being. If though you're in dire physical condition it's harder to focus on spiritual needs. I do agree too though that physical challenges do bring spiritual growth. Perhaps it involves degree of challenges. It's certainly not black and white, and can be complicated.

I am also thinking of millions who conform to the agenda of power and in this way lose their true human being. The prime example would be the consumer culture in which we are immersed.

I agree.

 

[GeoFee]

I do agree too though that physical challenges do bring spiritual growth.

I lived a basically homeless life from about fifteen years of age to thirty. This educated me in a way differing from that of my companions who graduated school and went to colleges, trade schools or steady employments. At thirty I turned to the way of care for others. This rooted in the practice of spiritual being.

 

[Mendalla]

I do agree too though that physical challenges do bring spiritual growth.

I would substitute "can" for "do." It is not automatic. I have seen cases where people just tried to shrug the challenges or just kept fighting to get back to "normal" rather than following the path they were given.

Very interesting. I have noticed that death waits for each one of us. The moment is not predictable, though sometimes it’s pattern makes us aware that death is now approaching. We, who have traded our material being for spiritual being, are called to waken others to their spirit being. We do this fully aware that many will refuse

But that is awareness of death, not actual death. All growth, including spiritual, stops at death as far as we can actually know. Living in awareness of mortality is what brings spiritual growth. Spiritual growth does not justify premature death.

 

[GeoFee]

All growth, including spiritual, stops at death as far as we can actually know.

What lies beyond the threshold is not yet known. While spiritual growth may stop at death, spiritual influence does not. It lingers in the memory of those who loved us, and in the works we have accomplished along our way.

The presence of death in my imagination served well to educate me concerning the meaning and purpose of life. Is life about the abundance of wealth? For me it is not. Is life about the increase of power? Not for me. For me life is about gratitude for the gifts of the natural order. Some natural gifts delight me. Other natural gifts challenge me. The delight encourages my being and the challenge offers opportunity for the growth of character. Life, like any coin, has two sides. Both are beneficial.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I am not suggesting that physical care is always traumatic to spiritual being. I will suggest that many in care homes suffer from spiritual disconnection. Working with the elderly disabled for many years has made it obvious to me that as human beings we are made for connection.

Not all of us in the same way. Some of us are introverts who like company now and then but not regularly. Some autistic persons prefer their communication online - but it doesn't mean they don't feel any connection or sense of community. For some people - as long as they are not deprived of material needs like food and water and necessary medicine - the pandemic isolation as provided a break from mainstream expectations and a chance to rethink how we structure society to be inclusive.

I think sometimes, when our norms are disrupted, what people notice is a projection of what they want, not the way things are. The people fighting masking and distancing until the pandemic doesn't pose a risk to the vulnerable, are afraid of losing the material reality of their church routines. The pastors perhaps feel a loss of power, to not have a pulpit, maybe a financial loss. It has nothing to do with God or worship. It's a material fight not a spiritual one. Otherwise, spiritually, there are creative ways to have church that don't make vulnerable people sick or kill them, and others are figuring it out.

 

[GeoFee]

I have learned how to connect with persons experiencing many of the personality aspects you present. I was once assigned to bath and cook breakfast for a young man in the last stages of ALS. Before I got him out of bed he made a comment regarding the erection of his penis. He then asked if I would masturbate him. I asked if I could think about it for a moment. Then I responded. I told him to attempt the masturbation on his own. I added that I would be happy to clean up after his ejaculation. After this I bathed, dressed and fed him. We knew each other only a slight while. When he died we were friends.

How I met you on Commercial drive is basically how I meet most people along my way.

 

[Ritafee]

Spiritual growth does not justify premature death.

Are the majority of deaths 'with' covid significantly premature?

Spiritual growth was greatly enhanced in our immediate family and all who had the chance to be bedside with my Mother as she lay 'dying' ... it took her 18 months to give up the ghost ... she could do nothing for herself physically other than reaching out her one good hand to hold another's ... sometimes she would hold my hand so strongly that I could not pull my own away even if I wanted to ... for 18 months she spiritually ministered to all those who would come to her bedside ... even the ones she jestingly referred to as 'her torturers'.

She did not preach the gospel ... even though she seemed to have a lot of it memorized ... she just wanted to share stories and sing songs and know how everyone was getting along in the world outside of her influence.

So how would a person like that have fared in these restrictive times of carona?

She was not even able to push the 'call' button to summon attention.

'God' can find us all where we are individually ... but God's people ... people like my Mother ... they have no purpose in life if they are not allowed to serve the other ... so death is not premature if there is no longer a purpose to staying physically present IMO.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

My opposition is directed to persons who exercise power in service to profit at the expense of creation and it's peoples. My inspiration is rooted in the prophetic narratives of the Old Testament and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This not in any religious sense but in light of the truth that calls us to follow in its way. Sad to watch the powers distracting whole populations from what is actually happening in nature and in history. All while the corporate powers eliminate competition and move towards "absolute control over every living soul", as Leonard Cohen puts it.

I agree with you here.......
I think democracy is threatened world-wide due mainly to corporate power. Once big corporations became so powerful that, in a democracy, a party couldn't get elected without the support of these big corporations. I'm dismayed by the growing gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots".
But we can't just blame those in authority. The church pews are full of folks who accept Jesus as their role model - yet don't act accordingly.

The real culprit is the individual in a democracy. We like to lay blame at the other, whilst ignoring the plank in our own eye.


Stephen Colbert puts it better than I can -
"If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that he commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to."

Despite their obvious failings governments are necessary and still get many things right, im.o. - the pandemic. There would have been far less deaths if individuals had followed government health guidelines instead of believing nonsensical conspiracy theories.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I have learned how to connect with persons experiencing many of the personality aspects you present. I was once assigned to bath and cook breakfast for a young man in the last stages of ALS. Before I got him out of bed he made a comment regarding the erection of his penis. He then asked if I would masturbate him. I asked if I could think about it for a moment. Then I responded. I told him to attempt the masturbation on his own. I added that I would be happy to clean up after his ejaculation. After this I bathed, dressed and fed him. We knew each other only a slight while. When he died we were friends.

How I met you on Commercial drive is basically how I meet most people along my way.

I'm not sure how the personality aspects I mentioned have anything to do with your story. I wasn't referring to sex, or that kind of "connection" or people who might be prone to inappropriate behaviour. That has nothing to do with people being introverted or autistic, or disabled, or vulnerable to the worst effects of the virus. Or church and state. Is there a reason you went there - why you needed to tell that story in relation to this topic?

Was that what's called a micro-aggression? Now if I ever need an aid to bathe me, I'm probably going to think of your story with revulsion. Great. Thanks.

All the more reason people with disabilities need to be able to interview and hire our own staff. Something about the graphic detail with which you told the story is off putting and was unnecessary.

Though I suppose it's necessary for a young man to do his business, I don't think we need to hear about the details - any more than it would be appropriate to talk about anyone else's sexual needs here - it has nothing to do with this topic because the pandemic would not have changed that.

I enjoyed meeting you that day, too.

 

[PilgrimsProgress]

We, who have traded our material being for spiritual being, are called to waken others to their spirit being. We do this fully aware that many will refuse

Careful - you're verging on a Messiah complex here.........

Many, many, years ago now when I was a patient in a psych hospital I couldn't help noticing the number of seriously disturbed patients who thought they were Jesus, or Mary - or Shakespeare, or Elvis Presley....... Never the donkey, or someone not well known.

Even then, I thought it made more sense to just admit you were trying to overcome feelings of inferiority.

 

[GeoFee]

I'm not sure how the personality aspects I mentioned have anything to do with your story. I wasn't referring to sex, or that kind of "connection" or people prone to inappropriate behaviour. That has nothing to do with people being introverted or autistic, or disabled, or vulnerable to the worst effects of the virus. Or church and state. Is there a reason you went there?

I was drawing on these words from you:

“Not all of us in the same way. Some of us are introverts who like company now and then but not regularly. Some autistic persons prefer their communication online - but it doesn't mean they don't feel any connection or sense of community.”

My intention was to say only that I know how to carefully meet persons of all kinds. To me each is a human being just as I am. I do all that I am able to foster unity of identity and purpose. I have a gift for coming along side any stranger. On Commercial Drive, I knew all the homeless persons. At Barbara’s University functions I knew Professors, Deans and University Administrators. I got on well with persons in both of these contexts. Each person met is a human being just as I am. This though we differ circumstantially.

 

[Kimmio Laughterlove]

I was drawing on these words from you:

“Not all of us in the same way. Some of us are introverts who like company now and then but not regularly. Some autistic persons prefer their communication online - but it doesn't mean they don't feel any connection or sense of community.”

My intention was to say only that I know how to carefully meet persons of all kinds. To me each is a human being just as I am. I do all that I am able to foster unity of identity and purpose. I have a gift for coming along side any stranger. On Commercial Drive, I knew all the homeless persons. At Barbara’s University functions I knew Professors, Deans and University Administrators. I got on well with persons in both of these contexts. Each person met is a human being just as I am. This though we differ circumstantially.

Ok, I understand - but why the graphic details of someone else's sexual wishes? Would you tell a graphic story about a lover so non-chalantly? To me, it seems like people with impairments can be talked about - personal details shared by others - as though we are less than persons deserving full respect. And I suppose some staff may have found his request offensive. You didn't and you dealt with it tactfully and professionally. Still not sure of the relevance of sharing that here, in this discussion though.

And your story still has nothing to do with church and state and pandemic restrictions. And it has nothing to do with a preference for introversion. ALS and autism are not the same. ALS and introversion are not related. He wasn't autistic or necessarily introverted - all you said was he had ALS.

 

[BetteTheRed]

Many, many, years ago now when I was a patient in a psych hospital I couldn't help noticing the number of seriously disturbed patients who thought they were Jesus, or Mary - or Shakespeare, or Elvis Presley....... Never the donkey, or someone not well known.

Aye, always upstairs, never downstairs.

It's the problem with being sure enough that you are "in the right".

 

[paradox3]

On another board, I have a 4 appended to my username (not Mendalla, I use a different name there) because the username, and 1, 2, and 3 were already taken. None of them were even active at the time I joined or since, but taken nonetheless.

Exactly my story of how I became Paradox3.

 

[BetteTheRed]

And why my name is sometimes Red, sometimes Redde...

 

[GeoFee]

Careful - you're verging on a Messiah complex here.........

I am very careful. Having been a follower of Jesus for a fair while, I have put off much of my old self. This while growing into my new self. That self being one with Christ. I am not there yet, but the goal is now in clear view. Once the goal is obtained, by the Grace of God, I will certainly face strong opposition. My two exemplars along this way are Jesus and Socrates. Each being murdered for expressing an alternative to the dominant consciousness of their respective cultures (Hebrew - Greek).

 

[Ritafee]

The real culprit is the individual in a democracy.

They should all be crucified ... for the 'safety' of the common good.