Tech wizzes as do low tech parenting?

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No - I don't think it's "a trap". I disagree that there's a conspiracy going on. These things are all tools - how they are used are up to the people involved. Some overindulge or don't set limits for a whole variety of reasons - just like with other things in life.

Yes - public libraries are already changing - in communities and in schools too. Not necessarily a bad thing - just a different thing. They are still information & learning & literary hubs, as far as I can see from my own community. And they are very important. Several years ago in Toronto there was a move to close many of the public libraries - there was huge outcry from the public & they were preserved, thankfully.
 
Carolla said:
No - I don't think it's "a trap". I disagree that there's a conspiracy going on. These things are all tools - how they are used are up to the people involved. Some overindulge or don't set limits for a whole variety of reasons - just like with other things in life.

Yes - public libraries are already changing - in communities and in schools too. Not necessarily a bad thing - just a different thing. They are still information & learning & literary hubs, as far as I can see from my own community. And they are very important. Several years ago in Toronto there was a move to close many of the public libraries - there was huge outcry from the public & they were preserved, thankfully.
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I don't think there's a conscious conspiracy - that a bunch of people sat around a table one day and conspired to take over the world step by step (although that's even debatable if you watched the video from the 60s I posted about 2001 A Space Odyssey - and how collaborative efforts to make and market that movie were integral to advancing the space and computer age. They were rather proud and unapologetic about their conspiracy then). I don't think that- it's just that at a subconscious level things are moving that way, and the creators of this stuff realize it and want to make sure their offspring has an advantage - and if others' offspring don't get the same wisdom...meh...because their kids are going to stay a big step ahead in the game and if they can keep it quiet while they sell their products in more facets of society, they and their kids stay a step ahead. It's social Darwinism. I really just think they care less about others futures, really, than they do about staying rich and powerful for their own kids' sake. It's more that than a careful conspiracy at this point.

I was just listening to CBC on a regular radio - remember those? Anyway, it was coincidental...they had Michael Harris on the show talking about his book, "The End of Abscence" (why, me thinks, is 'something' telling us to wake up?) He points out that Internet usage has increased 500% in the last decade. 500% !!!! So, I don't think I'm off base, it's important to discuss...Jobs and colleagues started all this. The book is about the importance of disengaging from technology - and even building disconnected time into workplace policies.

He made a good comment in the interview - "whether you are a genius or an individual...no one ever wrote a brilliant novel, or came up with an original idea, by consensus" you need time away from the social media and email. You need to ignore the constant alerts. He took a month off from the Internet and his cell phone. To me, born in the 70s, that's doable and I actually really miss the slow old days (I am addicted to my phone and coming here and I see physical friends less and they socialize in person less, too) , but some people couldn't fathom doing that - and indeed some work places would have to radically reorganize how they do things, to even allow for a couple of hours a day, even, of offline time. I cut down to about one post a day for a few days (anyone notice?) - maybe it was more but I consciously cut down- and I am not using my 3G on the phone.I am cut off, and I am only accessing wifi when I am out where there are people - I have to go for a walk to get there - where there is human interaction - where I have to limit my online time. My work doesn't involve computers - well except emails to and from the boss when necessary - and so I am happy with that as long as it lasts. I consider myself fortunate.

Harris talked about how we are so reliant on tech that when we disengage we have to get online to tell people about our down time...which is what I just did. Lol!
 
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Another thing is satellites...if libraries ever become fully digitized and satellites get knocked out by CMEs from the sun...or collide with space junk and asteroids...humanity has put themselves at a marked disadvantage. It's true! Why don't they make books with polymer pages - like they did with money - out of recycled plastic!
 
Oh...another thing he said "our memories are constantly being revised, reshaped...they may not be exactly as things happened but they are a creative process, and they form our human identities - whereas computers are good at recall, not memory."

I took that as a warning about AI.
 
Inukshuk said:
George Cohon has made a fortune from McDonald's. My guess is that he fed his kids some fruits and vegetables - and not a steady diet of big macs and fries.
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McDonald's became a fast food empire by specifically target marketing to children - the bright colours, the mascots, the toys, the playrooms, everything designed to attract children - so if he did not condone feeding the food that made his company billions, to his kids, for breakfast, lunch, and dinner - and while obesity and diabetes grew, especially in poorer inner city communities -he was a hypocrite. And that sort of nefarious hypocrisy pisses me off just a little. It's only been in recent years with a lot of public complaining (and them losing money) that they even added healthy(er) choices to their menu.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_McDonald's
 
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Thought for today...I am disappointed in my parents and grandparent's generations, and mine too to an extent, the beatniks and the hippies got it - but they sold out to make fortunes. Globalization, we are seeing, has it's darker side.
 
On a heartening note. In the coffee shop. An asian family comes in, they've got their gadgets out on the table - boy, about ten, distances himself from them a little - and reads a paperback book.
 
The important things to get from this thread:

-- everything isn't neutral. all technologies, from writing to books to the internet to speech, is a created thing and, as such, has certain effects. it does things, they aren't just lying there, passively

-- we are always involved in whatever we do...we aren't passive observers, reality is interactive

-- therefore, it behooves us better to come to grok with fullness all of these technologies, from writing to speech to laptops. passively accepting these means that you have less control over what happens -- eg. using tv as a babysitter

-- program or be programmed -- we live in the worlds that others have discovered/created and now we live in a world where we are constantly being inundated by multiple worlds -- some people/organizations/states are very very good at world creation

-- one always has a choice in interpretation/perspectacles -- in any situation, there is more than one interpretation, that one should learn how to do -- wear different perspectacles and different things become apparent -- so one can look at a certain Space Odyssey 2001 video with anxiety over being manipulated and some kind of enemy and one can then try on a different perspective that looks at the exact same video with warmth and fondness for humanity as a worldview that promotes humanity and etc...

good thread, Kimmio--you're following the worldview of yer bibble well
 
Inannawhimsey said:
The important things to get from this thread:

-- everything isn't neutral. all technologies, from writing to books to the internet to speech, is a created thing and, as such, has certain effects. it does things, they aren't just lying there, passively

-- we are always involved in whatever we do...we aren't passive observers, reality is interactive

-- therefore, it behooves us better to come to grok with fullness all of these technologies, from writing to speech to laptops. passively accepting these means that you have less control over what happens -- eg. using tv as a babysitter

-- program or be programmed -- we live in the worlds that others have discovered/created and now we live in a world where we are constantly being inundated by multiple worlds -- some people/organizations/states are very very good at world creation

-- one always has a choice in interpretation/perspectacles -- in any situation, there is more than one interpretation, that one should learn how to do -- wear different perspectacles and different things become apparent -- so one can look at a certain Space Odyssey 2001 video with anxiety over being manipulated and some kind of enemy and one can then try on a different perspective that looks at the exact same video with warmth and fondness for humanity as a worldview that promotes humanity and etc...

good thread, Kimmio--you're following the worldview of yer bibble well
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I don't know if it is/ was a worlview that promotes humanity. It promotes an idea of what the future of humanity should look like according to some elites steering it unbenounced to the rest of the schmucks. That video/ film wasn't for public consumption back then - it was a marketing pitch to get companies and investors to buy in to that future view. Most of the public was not aware of behind the scenes manipulation involving nearly every sector of life - deemed the MIC- well the hippies were catching on but they sold out too.
 
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That video blew my mind. Very short. Very telling. It wasn't some top secret thing but still it was something the average person would not be privy to knowing about then.
 
Every generation deplores the next generation and technology,

Don't use the phone run over to your friends house

Kids will never learn to use an abacus/slide rules/ Roman numerals........

Kids will burn their eyes watching tv........


It has always been thus


Eventually we get settled with our technology.

Our parents worried about tv. We worried about violent video games,

There will always be something.

But mostly parents try to have kids use a little bit of everything.

There were always kids who didn't read. Kids who didn't like math. Kids who didn't like art.....

The one thing I thought over the past twenty years is that many activities seem solitary. There seemed to be less of face to face enjoyment of games but then I realised that kids play these on online games with real friends around the world. We had pen pals. They have on line pals

I would bet that most in my generation can't do many of the things that our parents did and that will continue. But at the same time, kids can type. Read and type and converse with people around the world

That is pretty cool
 
Lastpointe said:
Every generation deplores the next generation and technology,

Don't use the phone run over to your friends house

Kids will never learn to use an abacus/slide rules/ Roman numerals........

Kids will burn their eyes watching tv........


It has always been thus


Eventually we get settled with our technology.

Our parents worried about tv. We worried about violent video games,

There will always be something.

But mostly parents try to have kids use a little bit of everything.

There were always kids who didn't read. Kids who didn't like math. Kids who didn't like art.....

The one thing I thought over the past twenty years is that many activities seem solitary. There seemed to be less of face to face enjoyment of games but then I realised that kids play these on online games with real friends around the world. We had pen pals. They have on line pals

I would bet that most in my generation can't do many of the things that our parents did and that will continue. But at the same time, kids can type. Read and type and converse with people around the world

That is pretty cool
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Yeah, it is pretty cool. The downside is instant gratification. I remember being so thrilled to hear from my pen pals. All of you...meh. ;) no really, it's not quite the same, because we're so used to hearing back from people almost instantly.

There are two real dangers I see. I am not just turning into some kind of curmudgeon.

1. We are off loading mental tasks onto our machines so we don't have to think as much for ourselves, and we call up instant information from them. This is causing just about everyone except those who create and program the machines to get dumber - people's attention spans are getting shorter.

2. The 'grid' that runs our online tech - even the command centeres for power generation, telephones is dependent on satellites which could get knocked out by coronal mass ejections and space junk. Only an elite few know how to get up into space to try to fix it, and it is enormously expensive. Not sure if they could even get up there if everything went 'off line'. I don't even think we've kept old fashioned systems for back up - telephone lines are gone, etc. I hope they kept the instructions - on paper! (hope they bothered - unlike me and the phone numbers in my cell - you see?)

Those dangers are unprecedented in this age. We never had such existential concerns from dependence on everyday tools before.

We need to maintain old fashioned wits and survival skills just in case.
 
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re point 1.
We are off loading data retrieval and storage to computers. Analysis of the data, being able to see patterns, being able to build. if anything we have to think more.

re #2.
Seriously? you think that weather alerting, communications haven't made life better? My goodness, Kimmio. I think i woul rather not be at the spot where if I ended up on the side of the road with a flat tire, I had to walk back to a garage or risk a stranger. I am thankful for cell phoens. I am a lot less leery for driving at night. Sure, there is a change that e could get knocked off the cirucuilt, but, there i a hell of a lot bigger chance that the systems will stay operational and improve.
 
Some technologies have improved life. Some have not at all, IMO, Pinga. My iPhone is a curse, for example. ;) although a prepaid cell for emergency use was once a good idea I had.
 
@Pinga Yes. Seriously. I am serious that I think the existential risks are overall greater in many areas. Hmm. Are you sure there is a bigger chance satellites will stay operational? I have heard of a few major 'near misses' by CMEs - at least potential for them - and space junk and asteroids. There's nothing they can do about it at present so it is not discussed much. The more satellites and other things go out to space the more space junk we create, too. Also, when Rogers goes out for a few hours or bank machines go down people go apoplectic. It's not worth it! What if it's days? Weeks? Months? It could take months to fix a satellite. Longer. We need to have old fashioned back up available, at least.

...and you have to think more about data analysis. That's not always the most important stuff to be thinking about, IMO. Data misses a lot. It misses different contexts. We're going to turn soulless and robot like in our thought processes and miss human subtleties, imagination- and lose our survival instincts, even. I think that sucks, personally.

I remember a girl stopping to ask my coworker and I if she was at the right address. She very obviously, by the number on the door of the building, was not - but she was upset and almost argumentitive with us because her GPS told her she was at the right place. As though, we, and the building, were trying to fool her. It was pathetic!
 
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Yes, I am sure.
Just like I am sure that it is more probable that I can drive my cafe safely, then I can walk to Toronto.
Just like I am sure that I am better off with the current treatments for appendicitis, diabetes and a broken leg than it wa in the 1800's.

Yes, there are consequnces and risks; however, the choice of not having them is not something that I want to do.
The mennonites in our area use the hospital. Surgeons are called to ER by cell phones. You know, I think it is ok....and prefer to live in a world where a surgeon shows up, then I have to send a horse across town.

So, no, I am not paranoid about the consequnces, and yes, I feel that it is important to keep balance, but, I will not step back into the dark ages due to paranoia.

ps. data analysis inclues the use of one's brain If we just did analysis based on data, then a human would not be required. The individual you used as an example chose not to use their brain.
 
I never said we need to go back to horses! What about having old fashioned telephone lines and radios for back up, though? Why not? And why did we (I think foolishly) get rid of most old systems altogether?
 
It's not paranoid, imo. It's sensible and necessary to realize and discuss. Unless the scientists and people who contributed to the above 2 articles are paranoid, too. We rushed in and didn't plan ahead. I think that was wrong.
 
Kimmio said:
@Pinga Yes. Seriously. I am serious that I think the existential risks are overall greater in many areas. Hmm. Are you sure there is a bigger chance satellites will stay operational? I have heard of a few major 'near misses' by CMEs - at least potential for them - and space junk and asteroids. There's nothing they can do about it at present so it is not discussed much. The more satellites and other things go out to space the more space junk we create, too. Also, when Rogers goes out for a few hours or bank machines go down people go apoplectic. It's not worth it! What if it's days? Weeks? Months? It could take months to fix a satellite. Longer. We need to have old fashioned back up available, at least.

...and you have to think more about data analysis. That's not always the most important stuff to be thinking about, IMO. Data misses a lot. It misses different contexts. We're going to turn soulless and robot like in our thought processes and miss human subtleties, imagination- and lose our survival instincts, even. I think that sucks, personally.

I remember a girl stopping to ask my coworker and I if she was at the right address. She very obviously, by the number on the door of the building, was not - but she was upset and almost argumentitive with us because her GPS told her she was at the right place. As though, we, and the building, were trying to fool her. It was pathetic!
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That's what I mean, though. As people rely on their tech more and more, I see evidence of us using our whole brains less and less.
 
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