So just where was Jesus born?

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That date was chosen to match with the ancient Roman calendar for the winter solstice and Saturnalia celebrations of light would match with Jesus being the light of the world, maybe?
I am hearing that there is some debate on that point. I'll see if I can find something. Might even be from Dr. Henry, though that might be me remembering how he picked the whole Easter = Aoster idea apart (basically, there's almost no actual documentary evidence for Aoster, so her whole existence as a goddess is in doubt).
 
I am hearing that there is some debate on that point. I'll see if I can find something. Might even be from Dr. Henry, though that might be me remembering how he picked the whole Easter = Aoster idea apart (basically, there's almost no actual documentary evidence for Aoster, so her whole existence as a goddess is in doubt).
Well there is debate about Christmas as Jesus birthday replacing the celebration of Saturnalia because there is also another contender called the "dies Natalis solis Invicti" birthday of "the unconquered sun". This honoured the cult of Sol Invicta. Origins were in Syria and the Monotheistic cult of Mithras which fits in better with the worship of Jesus story.
You can read about both stories here:
 
@paradox3
Dont forget that there was a great debate in ancient times about whether Jesus was God....there were many Christians that didn't follow that belief...eventually it was decided he was God but there were huge followings that were destroyed and banned or killed because they didn't agree
 
It still puzzles me how the early followers of Jesus came to believe He was God incarnate. It is not hard to imagine them coming to believe He was the Messiah promised in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Pretty cool schtuff
It would seem that God can say what Is and Isn't

John's Gospel has Jesus recognized as the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. It's easy enough to imagine a connection to the unblemished Passover lamb.

mmm lamb. very tasty. wonder how they prepared it
Am I the only one who finds it strange these two concepts were mushed together in early Christian theology? A Messiah who will usher in a new age and a sacrificial lamb are two very different ideas, don't you think?
We must learn to live with that, feeling strange. You must be used to that by now :3

Not strange to me.

Enough people could accept that back then? Easy peasy.

Not like a lot of today's literal mindedness or need for justification for beliefs or experiences and lack of trust...


Paul, I think, must have had some sort of seizure or hallucination on his trip to Damascus. And he put it together with ideas that were floating around at the time.
I still find that bit very trippy
Reminds me if a lot of UFO encounters (of the 3rd kind).

In a way, it is God "cheating"? Interfering with free will? Maybe tho that fits with Pan's theology of God Lures and doesn't coerce...


Other things the experience could have been:

literary license

some kind of spirit

Satan

The Aliens from Life of Brian :3

God
 
@paradox3
Dont forget that there was a great debate in ancient times about whether Jesus was God....there were many Christians that didn't follow that belief...eventually it was decided he was God but there were huge followings that were destroyed and banned or killed because they didn't agree
Do you have a name or a reference? I have never heard of this and would like to look it up.
 
There were certainly groups like the Arians attacked as heretics but I don't recall hearing about "huge followings that were destroyed or killed". Early Unitarians definitely had a rough ride at times.
 
There were certainly groups like the Arians attacked as heretics but I don't recall hearing about "huge followings that were destroyed or killed". Early Unitarians definitely had a rough ride at times.
Arianism...was the most threatening to the Roman church. They saw the word as the first of God's creations. Arius advocated a form of ditheism. According to Arius Jesus was created by the father and not divine as the father.
There were also groups of people that believed in adoptionism...that emphasized the humanity of Christ and removed his deity altogether. The Ebionites may have been adoptionists.
Also Docetism...that emphasized the deity of Christ and his humanity as merely illusion.
And Modalism... that believed in Father, Son and spirit as successive modes of Gods existence. Jesus as a sort of avatar that came after God and before the spirit.

And then there's Jesus Himself who is supposed to have said he is the Son of Man.
 
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According to Arius Jesus was created by the father and not divine as the father.

I actually watched a video on Arianism this afternoon but this is going off topic so I've put it in a new thread.

 
@paradox3
Dont forget that there was a great debate in ancient times about whether Jesus was God....there were many Christians that didn't follow that belief...eventually it was decided he was God but there were huge followings that were destroyed and banned or killed because they didn't agree
Fans, sheesh...

 
My view is
I think if you do your research you will find that Luke was right in what he was inspired to write by God Himself ------if Luke is wrong then the Bible is a lie -----as the Scripture clearly says -----that God's Word who is Jesus ---is truth -----So it can't be truth and be inaccurate at the same time ---it is either truth or it is not ----


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I say
Here lies the dilemma ----for every Article that is Written to Discredit God and His Word -----there are many Articles Written to Defend and clear up any Discredits made -----

Answers in Genesis Web Sight ---say this

For many people, the belief that the Bible contains contradictions and inaccuracies is an excuse for not believing.
This anecdote shows that, for many people, the belief that the Bible contains contradictions and inaccuracies is an excuse for not believing.

Many such people have not actually read the Bible for themselves. Still fewer have analyzed any of the alleged contradictions. It has been my experience that, after a little research, all the alleged contradictions and inaccuracies are explainable

I say ------I Totally agree with their statement here -------------

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Does Luke’s claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem at the time of Quirinius’ census match the historical record?​


Quirinius’ census has been a point of controversy among biblical scholars and skeptics for centuries. History tells us that Caesar Augustus reigned over the Roman Empire from 27 BC to AD 14 and ordered a census to be conducted during his tenure. Herod the Great reigned in Judea until 4 BC, so Jesus had to be born sometime in or before 4 BC. Luke gives us a few historical details to set the stage for the birth of Christ: “In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria)” (Luke 2:1–2).

Luke’s mention of Quirinius (Cyrenius) as governor of Syria during the time of Caesar’s census appears to cause a problem as history records that Quirinius held that governorship between AD 6 and 7, at least ten years after the birth of Jesus.

There are at least three possibilities for how we can interpret Luke 2:2 concerning the census and Quirinius:

(1) Luke made a historical error regarding Quirinius’ census. Such a blunder would, of course, mean that Luke’s Gospel was not inspired by the Holy Spirit and would cast doubt on all the rest of Luke’s writings.

(2) The Greek word for “first” in Luke 2:2 is a form of the word protos and can be translated “before.” Thus Luke 2:2 could actually be translated, “This was the census taken before Quirinius was governor of Syria.”

(3) Quirinius actually ruled Syria on two separate occasions, and there were actually two censuses taken. The “first census” mentioned in Luke 2:2 occurred during Quirinius’ first term as governor, and another during his second term.

The second census is mentioned in Acts 5:37 and probably took place between AD 6 and 7 (Josephus links this census to an uprising led by Judas of Galilee). Luke was the author of both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, and his goal was to write “an orderly account” (Luke 1:3).
It seems that Luke did write a careful, orderly account: he mentions two censuses, and it was during the first one that Jesus was born. It would be unlikely for such a meticulous historian to make a blatant mistake in his timeline of events.

The Christian doctrine of the inerrancy of the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20–21) leads us to reject explanation (1).

Most of the available evidence points to explanation (3) as the best perspective on Quirinius and the census.
The Bible is true history, and its details are more trustworthy than the historical writings of the Romans and Josephus
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Another article on this ------

What Is a Census?​

In the simplest terms, taking a census is just officially counting people. Countries today conduct in-depth censuses, mostly for taxation purposes, and it wasn’t much different in Rome. So why was the census implemented in Rome at the time?

Caesar Augustus was fond of censuses. It took a lot of taxes to keep the enormous Roman army going, to build roads, and to finance military campaigns to continue conquering the known world. Caesar Augustus was also just generally a luxurious emperor. He recorded in his “Res Gestae Divi Avgvsti” (“The Deeds of Divine Augustus”— quite a fancy name for a diary) that he ordered widespread censuses of Rome at least three times in 28 B.C., 8 B.C., and 14 A.D.

More localized censuses also took place regularly in certain areas of the Roman Empire; Judea faced at least three censuses around the time of the birth of Christ, in 8 B.C., 2 B.C., and 6 A.D.
The Romans were record keepers and empire builders. Censuses came with the territory.
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I say -------------And another Article on this ----


To date, the only census documented outside the Bible near this time under Quirinius is the one referred to by the historian Josephus (Antiquities XVIII, 26 [ii.1], which he says took place in 6 A.D.

But notice that Luke 2:2 says that the census taken around the time Joseph and Mary went down to Bethlehem was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. This implies that there was a later census--most likely the one referred to by Josephus--which Dr. Luke would have also certainly known about.

There is good reason to believe that Quirinius was actually twice in a position of command (the Greek expression hegemoneuo in Luke 2:2 which is often translated “governor” really just means “to be leading” or “in charge of”) over the province of Syria, which included Judea as a political subdivision.

The first time would have been when he was leading military action against the Homonadensians during the period between 12 and 2 B.C. His title may even have been “military governor.”

A Latin inscription discovered in 1764 adds weight to the idea that Quirinius was in a position of authority in Syria on two separate occasions. There was definitely a taxing during this time and therefore, quite possible, an associated census, the details of which may have been common knowledge in Luke's time, but are now lost to us.

Scholars have advanced a number of other altogether viable explanations which would allow Luke's record (and therefore the Bible) to continue to be regarded as 100% trustworthy.
 
I actually watched a video on Arianism this afternoon but this is going off topic so I've put it in a new thread.

Whoops, sorry about that, I was just attempting to answer to Paradox's question regarding how Jesus became God.
 
The Myth that Jesus' Birth in Bethlehem is a Late Development:

(1) The Davidic Messiah traces its origin to the Messiah's birth in Bethlehem in Micah 5:2 and Jesus' messianic birth in Bethlehem is pre-Pauline, traceable to the pre-Pauline fragment in Romans 1:3-4, which Paul says fulfills OT prophecy:

"...who was descended from David according to the flesh and designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead (Romans 1:3-4)."

Note this same ancient fragment attests Jesus' resurrection as grounds for His status as "Son of God" or God incarnate.

(2) Mark's primary source of Peter and Mark quote with approval blind Bartimaeus' cry, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me (marj v10:47)."

The Myth that John Knows Nothing of Jesus' Birth in Bethlehem:

"Some asked, "Surely the Messiah does not come from Galilee, does He?" Has not the scripture said the Messiah is descended from David and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David lived (John; 8:41-42)?"

This remark is ironic; John knows the Bethlehem prophecy in Micah 5;2.
 
Oh the literal authority of it all ... with the literary abstract all deposed! Given what we really know of the past with the lies that have been generated to create gods ... is it possible the legends of gods are all gone astray? It even says in the Great Book that god said mortals shouldn't form idols and ideals ... perhaps just to take it as it flows as the myths blow by ... mostly a nebulous states! All in the dark past is so cloudy given the propensity for powerful rackets to corrupt the senses ... then demand silence from the under bearing structure ... put your ear to it and listen for signs of life down there --- Christopher Robin?

If you repeat legends often enough are they accepted as solid? Thus stuff is copious and repeated over and over like ADs to sell BS! Isn't it a booty full system of entertainment for the descent of powers as the light falls over the land? Cosmological drama ... should I say aren't for isn't is too singular for a collective sol ...

Outstanding sols do nt believe in collectiveness as then democratic social forms could become dangerous to empire builders ... the greatest fears of developers ... as the conflicting parts are constructed ... thus 2 sides of mind ... with a thin line of division for skeptics in the matter of schizoid behavioral psychology!

Due to ruling conservative elements, it appears this flaw rubs off on all of the collective ... very demanding aspect! Can it ever be balanced?

Thus follies ... as comprehensive goes ... further A' Din ... i.e. chaos ... divide and conquer! For to correct this urge for avarice would mean non success for the mortal aspect ... autonomous Merde? Thus mirrored if one can reflect ...

Some philosopher asked what is information without imagination about what to do with ide ... all lost in darker ages than we can report on our state 've Onus as we declare we are not responsible for anything ...
 
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