Exact timing isn't important, Bette. What is is that there's no more reason for such gifts to be distributed. We now have the closed canon of Scripture. We no longer need the sign gifts to discern just who is speaking for God. We can tell by comparing what people say with what is said in Scripture
Snoopy Considers 1 Corinthians
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unsafe
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AI
Cessationists believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, such as healing, prophecy, and speaking in tongues, ceased with the death of the apostles. They believe that these gifts were given to establish the church and authenticate the message of the apostles and prophets.
Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing ceased with the apostolic age. The doctrine was developed in the Reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.
Continuationism
Continuationists believe that the gifts of prophecy, miracles, and tongues continue.
I get a charge of how the world has to segregate ---by using human made up names ----for different views ----When it is about interpreting scripture properly and believing or not believing what the scripture says --
Interesting Read ====on the gifts ------pro and con views ----
www.blueletterbible.org
Whatever the case may be, the burden of proof is upon those who argue that certain gifts were only meant to be temporary.
It also must be remembered that all gifts are temporary – there will be no need for any of them when Christ returns.
As we read the Book of Acts we find that the disciples of Jesus through the work of the Holy Spirit, experienced power to mightily preach the message of Jesus, do miracles, heal the sick, cast out demons, and experience dreams and visions. In addition, other believers also received these gifts and experienced this power. Thus, it is argued, this miracle-working ability among believers is a characteristic of this entire age.
Paul wrote about the age of the New Covenant and compared it to the previous age. He explained it this way to the Corinthians.
Since they were the ones given the task of teaching the church the doctrine of Jesus Christ, special gifts were necessary. These gifts, however, would not be necessary for those who came after them because the Word of Christ was fully revealed when the New Testament was completed.
James said that healing was to continue in the church. He wrote the following.
When Jesus Christ returns there will be no more sickness or sorrow. Our knowledge about God, though not exhaustive, will be complete. Certain of the spiritual gifts, such as the gift of healing and the gift of the word of knowledge give us a taste of what that age will be like. When people experience God’s healing touch or are given some unique spiritual insight, they experience, to an imperfect degree, what the new age will be like. This is another reason as to why all the gifts must continue until Christ returns.
For example, some cessationists argue that the gift of apostle is still active in the church while others do not. There are cessationists who believe the gift of prophecy still functions among believers while others disagree. The gifts of the word of wisdom and the word of knowledge are likewise found in both categories of permanent and temporary among cessationists. The same holds true with the gift of discernment, or distinguishing of spirits.
There are even some cessationists who believe the gift of healing still operates in the church – although they usually define it as the medical art. The point is this: if cessationists cannot agree among themselves as to which gifts were temporary and which were permanent, then, it may be asked, “How is anybody else supposed to know the answer to this question?”
In sum, each of the major objections to the idea that the sign gifts have ceased have a reasoned response. The non-cessationists, those who think all of the gifts still exist in the church, believe that they have made their case.
Of course, these responses are all countered by the cessationists. They too believe that they have made their case for the withdrawal of certain gifts.
As can be readily seen, this is not an easy issue to decide. Indeed, there are reasonable arguments from both sides. This being the case, each believer will have to make up his or her own mind as to what they believe the Bible teaches on this subject.
First, the Scripture specifically says the gifts will continue to be used until Christ returns – there is no qualification to this statement. On the Day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the believers where they were able to perform certain miraculous deeds. These miraculous gifts were to characterize the present age.
Cessationists disagree. The fact that certain gifts were given at the outset of this age does not necessarily mean that they will continue until Christ returns. The continuance of the gifts has to be proven, not assumed.
Non-cessationists contend that many of the early congregations were miracle-working congregation. The fact that most of the congregations were given miracle-working power is another reason why the gifts were to continue.
Cessationists point out in response to this that not every congregation was given supernatural sign gifts. Indeed, we do not have any indication that the sign gifts functioned at a number of the churches. Thus, one cannot use the universality of supernatural gifts among all the churches to argue for their continuance.
Another point non-cessationists make is that the gifts were also given to give us an indication of what the coming age would be like. Thus, we presently experience some of the blessings of the new age through the exercise of the sign gifts.
In response, cessationists argue that this assumes what should be proved. Indeed, the stated purpose for spiritual gifts is the building up of the body of Christ to equip the believers for the work of the ministry. Nothing is ever said about these gifts giving us a foretaste of the “new age.”
Another argument from those who believe all the gifts still exist comes from the analogy of the body. The fact that the church is compared to a human body, and that the gifts of the spirit are likened to different parts of the body, indicates the permanent nature of all of the gifts. For the body to properly function each of the parts must exist and be operating correctly.
Cessationists respond by saying that we should not try to derive Bible-doctrine from analogies. Merely because the analogy of a body is used in describing the church does not mean that each gift must continue throughout the age for the body to properly function. The body could still properly function is certain of the gifts were withdrawn.
One of the strongest of the arguments which come from the non-cessationists is that there is no distinction made in Scripture between the sign gifts and non-sign gifts. If there is such a distinction, it is strange that the Bible does not make it.
Those who believe that certain gifts were to be withdrawn at some point in time, the cessationists, use Paul’s testimony to support this idea. Paul claimed that he had the signs of an apostle. This means that the apostles alone were given certain signs to establish their authority. Since there are no longer apostles there are no longer signs of the apostle or supernatural sign gifts. Thus, these sign gifts were distinguished from the other gifts.
Non-cessationists also point out that there is not any distinction made between permanent gifts and non-permanent gifts. Again, why is there no distinction made if there were two sets of gifts?
The cessationists respond by saying this fact can be discovered when the entirety of Scripture is studied. Like the doctrine of the Trinity, it is there in Scripture. However, it becomes clear the more the Bible is studied.
There is also the problem that cessationists cannot agree among themselves as to which gifts are permanent and which are temporary. This seems to destroy any idea that certain gifts can be clearly seen as temporary.
Cessationists say that there is a great deal of unanimity among them about which gifts were temporary as well as which gifts were permanent. They do not believe that a small difference among themselves weakens their overall argument.
In sum, we find reasoned arguments from each side. First, there seems to be a solid case for the continuance of all of the spiritual gifts that were originally given. In addition, cessationists believe that each of these objections to the continuance of the gifts can be answered. On the other hand, those who believe that God withdrew certain gifts at the end of the apostolic era also have reasoned arguments on their sides. Their arguments also have merit.
What must be emphasized is that there are good Bible-believing people on each side of this issue. Thus, no matter what a person eventually concludes about this question, there will always be godly, spiritually mature people who disagree. This must always be kept in mind.
Cessationists believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, such as healing, prophecy, and speaking in tongues, ceased with the death of the apostles. They believe that these gifts were given to establish the church and authenticate the message of the apostles and prophets.
Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing ceased with the apostolic age. The doctrine was developed in the Reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.
Continuationism
Continuationists believe that the gifts of prophecy, miracles, and tongues continue.
I get a charge of how the world has to segregate ---by using human made up names ----for different views ----When it is about interpreting scripture properly and believing or not believing what the scripture says --
Interesting Read ====on the gifts ------pro and con views ----
What Is the Case for Saying That All of the Original Spiritual Gifts Still Exist? by Don Stewart
Don Stewart :: What Is the Case for Saying That All of the Original Spiritual Gifts Still Exist?
www.blueletterbible.org
The Bible Says the Gifts Are Given until Christ Returns
When discussing the subject of spiritual gifts, Paul says they are given to the church until Jesus Christ returns. He told the Corinthians the following.Note that Paul said the Corinthians are not lacking in any spiritual gift while they wait for the Lord Jesus to return to the earth. While this does not necessarily mean that all of the gifts must operate until Christ returns, it certainly is the inference from what he said.
Whatever the case may be, the burden of proof is upon those who argue that certain gifts were only meant to be temporary.
Response by Cessationists
Cessationists respond by saying that the nature of certain gifts demonstrates they were only temporary. The fact that spiritual gifts were given to the church to be exercised until Christ returns says nothing about the duration of all of the gifts. It merely emphasizes that spiritual gifts are given for the work of the ministry. There is nothing illogical about arguing that when the purpose of a certain gift has been fulfilled, the gift may be withdrawn at that time.It also must be remembered that all gifts are temporary – there will be no need for any of them when Christ returns.
All the Gifts Are Characteristic of This Present Age
On the Day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was given to believers in a unique way. All who now believe in Jesus Christ are given the Holy Spirit and His power.As we read the Book of Acts we find that the disciples of Jesus through the work of the Holy Spirit, experienced power to mightily preach the message of Jesus, do miracles, heal the sick, cast out demons, and experience dreams and visions. In addition, other believers also received these gifts and experienced this power. Thus, it is argued, this miracle-working ability among believers is a characteristic of this entire age.
Paul wrote about the age of the New Covenant and compared it to the previous age. He explained it this way to the Corinthians.
There is no reason to believe that the blessings of the New Covenant age, which includes all spiritual gifts, would be limited to this first generation of Christians. These signs were to be characteristic of the entire age until Christ returns. All believers receive spiritual gifts, and all believers should be able to experience the power of the new age, as did Jesus’ original disciples.
Response by Cessationists
What took place at Pentecost was a unique experience. Furthermore, the apostles were in a unique position of actually personally knowing the earthly Jesus. Therefore, it this sense, they certainly are unique.Since they were the ones given the task of teaching the church the doctrine of Jesus Christ, special gifts were necessary. These gifts, however, would not be necessary for those who came after them because the Word of Christ was fully revealed when the New Testament was completed.
The Early Church Was a Miracle Working Church
We also find miracles in a number of churches in the apostolic age. They seem to be the rule rather than the exception. If the church began as a miracle-working enterprise, then why should we expect this to stop? This is true of the churches of Corinth and Galatia. To the Galatians Paul wrote.Each of these churches in the region of Galatia experienced miracles.
James said that healing was to continue in the church. He wrote the following.
All of this indicates that all of the gifts God originally gave the church were meant to continue until the Lord returned.
Response by Cessationists
Not every church was a miracle-working church. There are a number of churches that are mentioned in the New Testament with no reported miracle connected to them. Therefore we must be careful not to assume that miracles were normally occurring each time a new church was planted in the apostolic era. We do not have evidence to support that idea.The Purpose of Spiritual Gifts Was to Give a Foretaste of the Coming Age
Another reason for the continuance of all the gifts can be found in their purpose. Along with equipping the church for the work of the ministry, spiritual gifts give believers an idea of what the coming age will be like.When Jesus Christ returns there will be no more sickness or sorrow. Our knowledge about God, though not exhaustive, will be complete. Certain of the spiritual gifts, such as the gift of healing and the gift of the word of knowledge give us a taste of what that age will be like. When people experience God’s healing touch or are given some unique spiritual insight, they experience, to an imperfect degree, what the new age will be like. This is another reason as to why all the gifts must continue until Christ returns.
Response by Cessationists
This assumes what it should be proving. The Scripture never gives this as a reason that God gave believers the gifts of the Spirit. The Bible says the gifts were given to build up the body of Christ for the work of the ministry – it says nothing about giving believers some sort of insight into the age to come. As all will admit, any insight we may gain is only very limited. We still see through the glass darkly.The Analogy of a Body Shows All the Gifts Should Continue
There is also the analogy that the Scripture gives as the church being the body of Christ. This seems to indicate that the gifts of the Spirit are permanent since the various parts of the body have permanent existence. While this analogy cannot be pushed too far it is consistent with the idea that all of the gifts that God originally gave to the church were meant to be permanent throughout this entire church age.Response by Cessationists
We must be careful in using analogies to try to prove a particular doctrine. The Bible compares the church to a body – it does not teach that it is a literal body. Therefore, this body analogy proves nothing with respect to the permanence of the gifts.The Bible Does Not Designate Any of the Gifts as Sign Gifts
It is important to note that the Scripture nowhere designates certain gifts as “sign gifts.” In every place where the spiritual gifts are listed we find no distinction between sign gifts and non-sign gifts. While the Bible speaks of the “signs of an apostle,” it does not mean that certain gifts were meant only as sign gifts. If there were two sets of gifts, sign gifts and non-sign gifts, then we would expect them to be clearly distinguished from one another. They are not.Response by Cessationists
Scripture does speak of the signs of an apostle. In the context it seems to be speaking of the miraculous gifts that demonstrated the apostles had unique authority. It was only by these miraculous signs that people would know who had the authority of God and who did not. Therefore, the people were looking for miraculous signs from those who had authority in the church; the apostles and prophets.The Bible Does Not Divide the Gifts between Temporary and Permanent
There is also the fact that the Bible nowhere distinguishes between the temporary gifts and the permanent ones. The gifts that are supposed to be temporary are found in the same lists as those that are assumed to be permanent. If the Bible makes no distinction between the two, then how are we to know?Response by Cessationists
While the Bible nowhere specifically distinguishes between the temporal and the permanent this does not mean that we reject the idea. The Bible nowhere specifically uses the word Trinity – yet the Scripture clearly teaches the doctrine. A study of the purpose of the spiritual gifts in the overall plan of God will demonstrate that some gifts were meant to be used only temporarily.Cessationists Cannot Agree as to Which Gifts Were Temporary and Which Were Permanent
There is a further problem. There is no unanimity of opinion among cessationists as to which gifts were the temporary ones and which were supposed to be permanent. If the distinction between permanent and temporary was so clear then why is there disagreement upon which gifts should be placed in which category?For example, some cessationists argue that the gift of apostle is still active in the church while others do not. There are cessationists who believe the gift of prophecy still functions among believers while others disagree. The gifts of the word of wisdom and the word of knowledge are likewise found in both categories of permanent and temporary among cessationists. The same holds true with the gift of discernment, or distinguishing of spirits.
There are even some cessationists who believe the gift of healing still operates in the church – although they usually define it as the medical art. The point is this: if cessationists cannot agree among themselves as to which gifts were temporary and which were permanent, then, it may be asked, “How is anybody else supposed to know the answer to this question?”
Response by Cessationists
This is not entirely true. There is a great deal of unanimity of opinion that certain gifts were meant to be only temporary. These include the gift of apostle, prophet, miracles, healing, tongues, and interpretation of tongues. With respect to the word of knowledge, the word of wisdom, and the distinguishing between the spirits, the evidence is not as clear as to the meaning and the purpose of the giftIn sum, each of the major objections to the idea that the sign gifts have ceased have a reasoned response. The non-cessationists, those who think all of the gifts still exist in the church, believe that they have made their case.
Of course, these responses are all countered by the cessationists. They too believe that they have made their case for the withdrawal of certain gifts.
As can be readily seen, this is not an easy issue to decide. Indeed, there are reasonable arguments from both sides. This being the case, each believer will have to make up his or her own mind as to what they believe the Bible teaches on this subject.
Summary – Question 14
Cessationists are those who believe that certain spiritual gifts were not meant to be permanent for the entire New Testament age. Non-cessationists disagree. Not only to they think all of the objections that cessationists bring are answerable, they also point out a number of things that support the continuation of all of the gifts until Jesus Christ returns. We will summarize their arguments as well as the response of the cessationists.First, the Scripture specifically says the gifts will continue to be used until Christ returns – there is no qualification to this statement. On the Day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the believers where they were able to perform certain miraculous deeds. These miraculous gifts were to characterize the present age.
Cessationists disagree. The fact that certain gifts were given at the outset of this age does not necessarily mean that they will continue until Christ returns. The continuance of the gifts has to be proven, not assumed.
Non-cessationists contend that many of the early congregations were miracle-working congregation. The fact that most of the congregations were given miracle-working power is another reason why the gifts were to continue.
Cessationists point out in response to this that not every congregation was given supernatural sign gifts. Indeed, we do not have any indication that the sign gifts functioned at a number of the churches. Thus, one cannot use the universality of supernatural gifts among all the churches to argue for their continuance.
Another point non-cessationists make is that the gifts were also given to give us an indication of what the coming age would be like. Thus, we presently experience some of the blessings of the new age through the exercise of the sign gifts.
In response, cessationists argue that this assumes what should be proved. Indeed, the stated purpose for spiritual gifts is the building up of the body of Christ to equip the believers for the work of the ministry. Nothing is ever said about these gifts giving us a foretaste of the “new age.”
Another argument from those who believe all the gifts still exist comes from the analogy of the body. The fact that the church is compared to a human body, and that the gifts of the spirit are likened to different parts of the body, indicates the permanent nature of all of the gifts. For the body to properly function each of the parts must exist and be operating correctly.
Cessationists respond by saying that we should not try to derive Bible-doctrine from analogies. Merely because the analogy of a body is used in describing the church does not mean that each gift must continue throughout the age for the body to properly function. The body could still properly function is certain of the gifts were withdrawn.
One of the strongest of the arguments which come from the non-cessationists is that there is no distinction made in Scripture between the sign gifts and non-sign gifts. If there is such a distinction, it is strange that the Bible does not make it.
Those who believe that certain gifts were to be withdrawn at some point in time, the cessationists, use Paul’s testimony to support this idea. Paul claimed that he had the signs of an apostle. This means that the apostles alone were given certain signs to establish their authority. Since there are no longer apostles there are no longer signs of the apostle or supernatural sign gifts. Thus, these sign gifts were distinguished from the other gifts.
Non-cessationists also point out that there is not any distinction made between permanent gifts and non-permanent gifts. Again, why is there no distinction made if there were two sets of gifts?
The cessationists respond by saying this fact can be discovered when the entirety of Scripture is studied. Like the doctrine of the Trinity, it is there in Scripture. However, it becomes clear the more the Bible is studied.
There is also the problem that cessationists cannot agree among themselves as to which gifts are permanent and which are temporary. This seems to destroy any idea that certain gifts can be clearly seen as temporary.
Cessationists say that there is a great deal of unanimity among them about which gifts were temporary as well as which gifts were permanent. They do not believe that a small difference among themselves weakens their overall argument.
In sum, we find reasoned arguments from each side. First, there seems to be a solid case for the continuance of all of the spiritual gifts that were originally given. In addition, cessationists believe that each of these objections to the continuance of the gifts can be answered. On the other hand, those who believe that God withdrew certain gifts at the end of the apostolic era also have reasoned arguments on their sides. Their arguments also have merit.
What must be emphasized is that there are good Bible-believing people on each side of this issue. Thus, no matter what a person eventually concludes about this question, there will always be godly, spiritually mature people who disagree. This must always be kept in mind.
Same. I respect the continualist view and personally know good, spiritually mature people who hold to it. I just don't myself, nor do millions of other good, spiritually mature Christians
paradox3
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1 Corinthians 14:26-40
www.biblegateway.com
In today's text, Paul addresses order in the church. Everyone needs to learn and be encouraged.
Each one has a song, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. These are offered for the strengthening of the church. But decorum is necessary.
God is characterized not by disorder but by peace.
BUT women are to remain silent. If they need to know anything, they can ask their husbands at home.
AND if anyone considers themselves a prophet or a spiritual person, they should acknowledge that what Paul writes is the Lord's command.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 - New English Translation
Church Order - What should you do then, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each one has a song, has a lesson, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all these things be done for the strengthening of the church. If someone speaks in a tongue, it should be two, or at...
In today's text, Paul addresses order in the church. Everyone needs to learn and be encouraged.
Each one has a song, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. These are offered for the strengthening of the church. But decorum is necessary.
God is characterized not by disorder but by peace.
BUT women are to remain silent. If they need to know anything, they can ask their husbands at home.
AND if anyone considers themselves a prophet or a spiritual person, they should acknowledge that what Paul writes is the Lord's command.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
The Last part of this Chapter again addresses Tongues and Prophecy and proper etiquette in The Church and again says that tongues needs an interpreter -- and if there is no interpreter they should stay silent ------ and with Prophesy only one should speak at a time --so all learn and become encouraged -----
Now about the women not speaking in Church -----I think a little help from the Holy Spirit is needed to help understand what is being said here -----in my view -----
Paul already said women could participate in worship in an earlier Chapter ----so he is not saying that women have to stay silent all the time -in Church -
Paul is speaking about Prophesy here ----- verse 29
29 ;Let two or three prophets speak [as inspired by the Holy Spirit], while the rest pay attention and weigh carefully what is said.
30 But if an inspired revelation is made to another who is seated, then the first one must be silent.
I say --so here we see Protocol for Silence ------
31 For [in this way] you can all prophesy one by one, so that everyone may be instructed and everyone may be encouraged;
I say ---so by this statement here -in verse 29 --and weigh carefully what is said.
we can conclude that some Prophesy spoken may Not be inspired by God ------
then we see Paul saying ------But IF an Inspired Revelation is made ---then Paul says what should be done ----
So Verse 33 says -----God is the source of the prophesying ------but God does not confuse or cause disorder ---
so anyone prophesy that speaks confusion is not speaking from God ====
33 for God [who is the source of their prophesying] is not a God of confusion and disorder but of peace and order.
As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God’s people),
I say --so here we see that someone could give a an uninspired Prophesy -and the next verse ----is 34 ----
34 women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says.
I say ------Which was all explained in an Earlier Chapter
Verse
35 If there is anything they want to learn [that is, if they have questions about anything being said or taught], they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a ]woman to talk in church.
I say ---------- So this is saying that women during the Prophesy being spoken in Church should remain silent ---- and if there are questions about what was said they are to ask their Husbands at home -------
The women would know if the Prophesy given was inspired or Not inspired and were to keep silent --and they may have had questions about Inspired prophesy -But they were not to question what was being said ---until they got home ------
So there was Protocol for Prophesy speaking in the Church for everyone ----
Paul is saying that if anyone claims to be a Prophet --filled with the Holy Spirit let him recognize that what I write to you are God's commandment and anyone who does not recognize this is not recognised by God -----
Verses 39-40 speaks for themselves -----
39 Therefore, believers, desire earnestly to prophesy [to foretell the future, to speak a new message from God to the people], and do not forbid speaking in unknown tongues.
40 But all things must be done appropriately and in an orderly manner.
Now about the women not speaking in Church -----I think a little help from the Holy Spirit is needed to help understand what is being said here -----in my view -----
Paul already said women could participate in worship in an earlier Chapter ----so he is not saying that women have to stay silent all the time -in Church -
Paul is speaking about Prophesy here ----- verse 29
29 ;Let two or three prophets speak [as inspired by the Holy Spirit], while the rest pay attention and weigh carefully what is said.
30 But if an inspired revelation is made to another who is seated, then the first one must be silent.
I say --so here we see Protocol for Silence ------
31 For [in this way] you can all prophesy one by one, so that everyone may be instructed and everyone may be encouraged;
I say ---so by this statement here -in verse 29 --and weigh carefully what is said.
we can conclude that some Prophesy spoken may Not be inspired by God ------
then we see Paul saying ------But IF an Inspired Revelation is made ---then Paul says what should be done ----
So Verse 33 says -----God is the source of the prophesying ------but God does not confuse or cause disorder ---
so anyone prophesy that speaks confusion is not speaking from God ====
33 for God [who is the source of their prophesying] is not a God of confusion and disorder but of peace and order.
As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God’s people),
I say --so here we see that someone could give a an uninspired Prophesy -and the next verse ----is 34 ----
34 women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says.
I say ------Which was all explained in an Earlier Chapter
Verse
35 If there is anything they want to learn [that is, if they have questions about anything being said or taught], they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a ]woman to talk in church.
I say ---------- So this is saying that women during the Prophesy being spoken in Church should remain silent ---- and if there are questions about what was said they are to ask their Husbands at home -------
The women would know if the Prophesy given was inspired or Not inspired and were to keep silent --and they may have had questions about Inspired prophesy -But they were not to question what was being said ---until they got home ------
So there was Protocol for Prophesy speaking in the Church for everyone ----
Paul is saying that if anyone claims to be a Prophet --filled with the Holy Spirit let him recognize that what I write to you are God's commandment and anyone who does not recognize this is not recognised by God -----
Verses 39-40 speaks for themselves -----
39 Therefore, believers, desire earnestly to prophesy [to foretell the future, to speak a new message from God to the people], and do not forbid speaking in unknown tongues.
40 But all things must be done appropriately and in an orderly manner.
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
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I wonder what Paul would think of our churches today with their liturgies? The early churches were much more spontaneous in worship than we are nowadays.
And the Lord's Table was an actual meal, as we discussed a few days ago.
When did communion and other aspects of Christian worship become so ritualized, does anyone know?
And the Lord's Table was an actual meal, as we discussed a few days ago.
When did communion and other aspects of Christian worship become so ritualized, does anyone know?
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Found this -----
AI
Communion transitioned from a full meal to a more ritualistic practice as Christianity developed, primarily because early church leaders began to emphasize the spiritual significance of the bread and wine themselves, rather than the meal as a whole, leading to a focus on the symbolic act of partaking in those consecrated elements, rather than the entire eating experience; this shift also occurred as the Church became less connected to its Jewish roots where meals held a more central religious role.
This here makes sense to me as ----
God had set certain feast days and festivals as law for the Jewish Nation ----and so the Last supper was on a feast day -----
AI
According to the majority of Christian tradition, yes, the Last Supper took place on a feast day, specifically the Jewish Passover feast, as described in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke).
AI
Communion transitioned from a full meal to a more ritualistic practice as Christianity developed, primarily because early church leaders began to emphasize the spiritual significance of the bread and wine themselves, rather than the meal as a whole, leading to a focus on the symbolic act of partaking in those consecrated elements, rather than the entire eating experience; this shift also occurred as the Church became less connected to its Jewish roots where meals held a more central religious role.
This here makes sense to me as ----
God had set certain feast days and festivals as law for the Jewish Nation ----and so the Last supper was on a feast day -----
AI
According to the majority of Christian tradition, yes, the Last Supper took place on a feast day, specifically the Jewish Passover feast, as described in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke).
The instruction for women to remain silent must be understood in its cultural setting. At that time, the women were unused to being in inner worship spaces. Hence, they'd lots of questions to ask, and their speaking out in church was disruptive. Today, we know that women are just as capable of contributing valuable insights and teachings as men are.1 Corinthians 14:26-40
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 14:26-40 - New English Translation
Church Order - What should you do then, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each one has a song, has a lesson, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all these things be done for the strengthening of the church. If someone speaks in a tongue, it should be two, or at...
In today's text, Paul addresses order in the church. Everyone needs to learn and be encouraged.
Each one has a song, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. These are offered for the strengthening of the church. But decorum is necessary.
God is characterized not by disorder but by peace.
BUT women are to remain silent. If they need to know anything, they can ask their husbands at home.
AND if anyone considers themselves a prophet or a spiritual person, they should acknowledge that what Paul writes is the Lord's command.
My church and denomination value everyone's participation and believe that the Holy Spirit equips both men and women to share in ministry and mission. We honour the spirit of Paul's message by having an ongoing environment of respect and learning for all
The early Church's spontaneous worship was a reflection of its growing community. Over time, in around the 2nd or 3rd century, the need for structure led to more formalized liturgies. These rituals were developed to ensure that worship remained reverent and consistent.
In the Presbyterian tradition, we see the Lord's Supper as a means of grace that strengthens our faith. It's a sacred act that unites us all with Christ. The essence of our faith remains the same from NT times: friendship with God and each other
paradox3
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1 Corinthians 15
www.biblegateway.com
Paul explains the resurrection of Christ in some very well-known verses.
He also discusses how the dead will be raised. This section of the chapter contains some of Paul's most beautiful prose.
He encourages the Corinthians to stand firm in their faith.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - New English Translation
Christ’s Resurrection - Now I want to make clear for you, brothers and sisters, the gospel that I preached to you, that you received and on which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I passed on to you...
Paul explains the resurrection of Christ in some very well-known verses.
He also discusses how the dead will be raised. This section of the chapter contains some of Paul's most beautiful prose.
He encourages the Corinthians to stand firm in their faith.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Chapter 15 -
In The first part of this Chapter Paul lays it out very plainly what saves you ------
I say ---So the Gospel has to be Welcomed----and Accepted ----and Believed -----
2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment].
I say ------So here Paul is saying by Faith your are saved ----IF YOU ---condition here -----hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, ----if you don't then your belief is in vain ------
Next verses Paul tells them what they have to believe to be saved -----Paul says he is the least worthy to be saved as he persecuted God's Church -----only by God's grace was he saved ---
Apparently some of the Church did not believe in the Resurrection of the dead -----so Paul is correcting them --by saying if Christ has not been resurrected then our Faith is in vain ---and worthless ---
20 But now [as things really are] Christ has in fact been raised from the dead, [and He became] the first fruits [that is, the first to be resurrected with an incorruptible, immortal body, foreshadowing the resurrection] of those who have fallen asleep [in death].
I say ----this is speaking here of the Rapture to come -----when the dead in Christ are raised first ---
In Adam we all died and by Christ we are made alive --
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body will they come?”
36 You fool! Every time you plant seed you sow something that does not come to life [germinating, springing up and growing] unless it first dies.
Verse 36 ---tells us God's Kingdom works on the Farming system --
I say ----Paul says all flesh is not the same ----there is one for humas --one for animals --etc ---the human body is made Perishable and Mortal and is raise Imperishable and Immortal ---Flesh and blood cannot be part of God's kingdom---Death has been conquered by Victory
Paul tells his Church to remain steadfast and immovable in their labour in the Lord so it is not seen as wasted or futile ---
This to me sends a Powerful message not just to Paul's Church but is meant for all believers today ----
In The first part of this Chapter Paul lays it out very plainly what saves you ------
1 Corinthians 15 AMP
The Fact of Christ’s Resurrection
15 Now brothers and sisters, let me remind you [once again] of the good news [of salvation] which I preached to you, which you welcomed and accepted and on which you stand [by faith]I say ---So the Gospel has to be Welcomed----and Accepted ----and Believed -----
2 By this faith you are saved [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose], if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain [just superficially and without complete commitment].
I say ------So here Paul is saying by Faith your are saved ----IF YOU ---condition here -----hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, ----if you don't then your belief is in vain ------
Next verses Paul tells them what they have to believe to be saved -----Paul says he is the least worthy to be saved as he persecuted God's Church -----only by God's grace was he saved ---
Apparently some of the Church did not believe in the Resurrection of the dead -----so Paul is correcting them --by saying if Christ has not been resurrected then our Faith is in vain ---and worthless ---
20 But now [as things really are] Christ has in fact been raised from the dead, [and He became] the first fruits [that is, the first to be resurrected with an incorruptible, immortal body, foreshadowing the resurrection] of those who have fallen asleep [in death].
I say ----this is speaking here of the Rapture to come -----when the dead in Christ are raised first ---
In Adam we all died and by Christ we are made alive --
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body will they come?”
36 You fool! Every time you plant seed you sow something that does not come to life [germinating, springing up and growing] unless it first dies.
Verse 36 ---tells us God's Kingdom works on the Farming system --
I say ----Paul says all flesh is not the same ----there is one for humas --one for animals --etc ---the human body is made Perishable and Mortal and is raise Imperishable and Immortal ---Flesh and blood cannot be part of God's kingdom---Death has been conquered by Victory
Paul tells his Church to remain steadfast and immovable in their labour in the Lord so it is not seen as wasted or futile ---
This to me sends a Powerful message not just to Paul's Church but is meant for all believers today ----
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
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1 Corinthians 16
www.biblegateway.com
Not being one to beat around the bush, Paul advises the Corinthians to put aside some money on a weekly basis to support him. He plans to visit soon.
Paul instructs the people to stand firm in the faith, show courage and be strong. Everything they do should be done in love.
Fellowship with each other will refresh the spirit.
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 16 - New English Translation
A Collection to Aid Jewish Christians - With regard to the collection for the saints, please follow the directions that I gave to the churches of Galatia: On the first day of the week, each of you should set aside some income and save it to the extent that God has blessed you, so that a...
Paul instructs the people to stand firm in the faith, show courage and be strong. Everything they do should be done in love.
Fellowship with each other will refresh the spirit.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Chapter 16
So we see that the saints were to put aside some funds -----notice there is no set amount ----he says as they have prospered for the purpose of funding the Ministry ----
This of course is still relevant for today -----with tides and offerings to help fund the Ministry of the Church -----we are to give what is in our hearts to give -----there is no set amount for tithes like was in the old Testament -----of 10% ----
Paul tells his Church to make Timothy feel at ease when he comes ---
I say ------I think ---Paul thinks that some may oppose what Paul has written to them and they may give Timothy an ear full of complaining ----so he is telling them that Timothy is there to do the Lords work so treat him well -----
Paul tells the to stand firm in their faith and be strong -----let everything be done in Agape ----
I say ------This is a very important statement that Paul gives here -----and this is for all believers today ----
the enemy lurks waiting to devour all Born Again Christians ---who he can get to loose their Faith and Strength in Christ to stand against him -----
God's Faith has to be very Grounded and Rooted in Christ to stand against Satan and his tribe ---- and Paul knows that -----
He ends by saying if anyone does not Agape the Lord he shall be accursed ---as the Lord is coming back ----the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you -----
So we see that the saints were to put aside some funds -----notice there is no set amount ----he says as they have prospered for the purpose of funding the Ministry ----
This of course is still relevant for today -----with tides and offerings to help fund the Ministry of the Church -----we are to give what is in our hearts to give -----there is no set amount for tithes like was in the old Testament -----of 10% ----
Paul tells his Church to make Timothy feel at ease when he comes ---
I say ------I think ---Paul thinks that some may oppose what Paul has written to them and they may give Timothy an ear full of complaining ----so he is telling them that Timothy is there to do the Lords work so treat him well -----
Paul tells the to stand firm in their faith and be strong -----let everything be done in Agape ----
I say ------This is a very important statement that Paul gives here -----and this is for all believers today ----
the enemy lurks waiting to devour all Born Again Christians ---who he can get to loose their Faith and Strength in Christ to stand against him -----
God's Faith has to be very Grounded and Rooted in Christ to stand against Satan and his tribe ---- and Paul knows that -----
He ends by saying if anyone does not Agape the Lord he shall be accursed ---as the Lord is coming back ----the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you -----
paradox3
Peanuts Fan
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Thank you for the discussion on this thread. 2 Corinthians will be next but it might get not started for a week or two
We are coming to the end of a small group bible study in real life and I will be facilitating one of the sessions. My text is John 10: 22-39.
Here's an interesting bit of biblical trivia. John 10:22 is the only mention of Hannukah in the entire Bible.
See you soon.
We are coming to the end of a small group bible study in real life and I will be facilitating one of the sessions. My text is John 10: 22-39.
Here's an interesting bit of biblical trivia. John 10:22 is the only mention of Hannukah in the entire Bible.
See you soon.