Responsive Readings - Mindless? Meaningful?

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Mystic said:
Carolla, you raise an issue that is rarely discussed and raises the more general question of how pastors structure the order of worship. Most pastors draw their responsive readings and unison prayers from old prayer books. Some of those readings are excellent, but most begin to sound like shopworn clichés and jargon that deaden the spirit. A better choice is the repertoire of responsive readings and unison prayers from the best of modern books on creative liturgy. As a pastor, I drew heavily from these, but more often spent hours weekly composing such liturgical pieces that spoke to the theme of the service, especially my sermon. I also selected hymns and praise choruses with lyrics that fit that theme.

An honest evaluation of such creations is hard to make. A handful of people told me they collected all my liturgical creations for later meditation. I reveled in that affirmation until I realized that the people who benefit less from all this remain politely silent. A couple told me that they had to focus so much attention on the simple act of reading that the meaning went right over their heads. I suspect that these spoke for more than I'd like to admit. I tried to provide fresh language for worship and spiritual insight, but, though such efforts work for some, for others, it is unpleasant to put words in their mouths that they may ultimately embrace, but are not yet comfortable reciting. The ideal situation is to have a representative feedback group to hear a broad spectrum of reactions from various types of people with varying poetic and philosophical sensitivities.

This brings me to the question of alternative orders of worship. I always provide a couple of minutes for silent prayer and meditation. Many people loved this and looked forward to it, but others seemed uncomfortable with silence. I disregarded those naysayers because of the profound gratitude many others expressed for such moments. I even occasionally inserted Quaker meditation techniques into the service. My pianist loved these Quaker-style meditations and left instructions for me to lead such a meditation at her memorial service. She died after I retired, but the new pastor objected to her request, until family protests forced him to comply and I uncomfortably led a meditative process that should have been unifying, but rankled the new pastor's nerves! '


So, Carolla, what is your idea of the best structure for a worship service? In my retirement church hopping, I've noticed that most nonliturgical churches begin with 15-30 minutes of praise choruses and hymns, during which the congregation is expected to stand throughout. That struck me as too taxing for the elderly and began to bore me after the 4th hymn or chorus. I am dogmatic about one point, though: announcements need to come at the start of the service. If announcements are made in the middle, it disrupts the contemplative flow of worship.
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My Toronto Baptist church almost never has responsive readings or unison prayers. The pastor's style is to have spontaneous prayer and for him to do the Scripture reading himself before he preaches.

My pastor in Suwon has a responsive reading each week - of the passage he has chosen to preach on. There haven't been any unison prayers yet.
 
"Unison" hints at grasping ... those getting it all together ... unlikely with isolated points!

Hoards don't get it ...
 
Mystic said:
So, Carolla, what is your idea of the best structure for a worship service?
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I have been pondering my reply to your question.

First, I would say that I do not think there is any one "best structure" for worship. As you mention earlier in your post, different elements resonate differently with individuals. So all I can really tell you is my own preferences.

I am a person who likes some change and diversity - not the same format week after month after year, which to me becomes ritualized and boring. I'd happily rearrange the chairs in the sanctuary now & then - let's face each other & the centre rather than line up in rows facing the chancel; if we're talking about messages/symbols in our church window at the back of the church, let's turn the chairs right around and look at these windows. Perhaps even a week when other discussion or activity takes place in the sanctuary instead of the usual service would be interesting too. I like readings from both Biblical and secular sources which convey messages upon which I can reflect. I enjoy music (both instrumental & vocal) as a part of worship - interspersed, not necessarily all clustered together. I enjoy singing the Lord's Prayer (Voices United tune). I like to hear a variety of voices - not just that of the minister - lay liturgist, other readers (including the children & youth). I like a services that pauses for me to reflect - not one that races through all the elements as if to just get it done on time. So those a few responsive thoughts for today.
 
Imagine fluid drippy services after a hard Duncan ... celtic scones ... purity bread for fish and brews ...

Some pig renderings probable ...

Yet what do mortals really know but emotions ... calm gaps in hard realization?
 
Carolla said:
I have been pondering my reply to your question.

First, I would say that I do not think there is any one "best structure" for worship. As you mention earlier in your post, different elements resonate differently with individuals. So all I can really tell you is my own preferences.

I am a person who likes some change and diversity - not the same format week after month after year, which to me becomes ritualized and boring. I'd happily rearrange the chairs in the sanctuary now & then - let's face each other & the centre rather than line up in rows facing the chancel; if we're talking about messages/symbols in our church window at the back of the church, let's turn the chairs right around and look at these windows. Perhaps even a week when other discussion or activity takes place in the sanctuary instead of the usual service would be interesting too. I like readings from both Biblical and secular sources which convey messages upon which I can reflect. I enjoy music (both instrumental & vocal) as a part of worship - interspersed, not necessarily all clustered together. I enjoy singing the Lord's Prayer (Voices United tune). I like to hear a variety of voices - not just that of the minister - lay liturgist, other readers (including the children & youth). I like a services that pauses for me to reflect - not one that races through all the elements as if to just get it done on time. So those a few responsive thoughts for today.
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I also appreciate having some change each Sunday, but seems like the majority of people like everything the same, even the hymns. That bores me hugely.
 
I would say that we have a nice varied service week to week. Usually by default, the theme is suggested by (one of) the lectionary readings. But that's happily dropped if something more important comes up, like the chance to hear a Palestinian Christian, working in Bethlehem, speak to us of Palestine, that we enjoyed in November. The actual format is simple, but consistent. Only changes when there's some sort of presentation, like a Christmas Cantata by the choir, where the service elements will be compressed, and the sermon/discussion left out. I say "discussion" optimistically; we try that sort of thing 2-3 times a year, and I like it, although it's a bit nerve-wracking, even if you have a couple of "in case of" set-ups in the pews.

And the music, while still somewhat awful, is better than some. And we've finally got to the point where we can satisfy the old codgers with one "heritage hymn" per week, not always with the heritage words, blessed be, and the rest come from the more modern selections of Voices United, with an increasing number from More Voices. And we have a drum set, a nice grand and a few talented pianists, and a few people who play guitars.
 
Carolla said:
I have been pondering my reply to your question.

First, I would say that I do not think there is any one "best structure" for worship. As you mention earlier in your post, different elements resonate differently with individuals. So all I can really tell you is my own preferences.

I am a person who likes some change and diversity - not the same format week after month after year, which to me becomes ritualized and boring. I'd happily rearrange the chairs in the sanctuary now & then - let's face each other & the centre rather than line up in rows facing the chancel; if we're talking about messages/symbols in our church window at the back of the church, let's turn the chairs right around and look at these windows. Perhaps even a week when other discussion or activity takes place in the sanctuary instead of the usual service would be interesting too. I like readings from both Biblical and secular sources which convey messages upon which I can reflect. I enjoy music (both instrumental & vocal) as a part of worship - interspersed, not necessarily all clustered together. I enjoy singing the Lord's Prayer (Voices United tune). I like to hear a variety of voices - not just that of the minister - lay liturgist, other readers (including the children & youth). I like a services that pauses for me to reflect - not one that races through all the elements as if to just get it done on time. So those a few responsive thoughts for today.
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Your response reflects my own preferences exactly. Creative variety in worship is essential. I once softy played a tape of beautiful Gregorian Chant during our time of silent meditation. I loved the effect. A Catholic man used to come to my church after Mass in time for my sermon. His wife was a leader in my church. But I'm still haunted by what he told me. He confessed, "I prefer the Catholic Mass because it's basically the same every Sunday and I love the same old routine." I thought to myself, "Wow, you're tastes are surely different from mine." My church wanted me to lead them in reciting the Lord's Prayer every Sunday. Yet until I did a 4-week sermon series on the various lines of the prayer, most of my people didn't know the subtleties of what it means. I think the weekly recitation deadened the spirit when we kept up this repetition. I think the only solution is the right kind of feedback mechanism that reacts to novelties is worship. I never received much feedback on my insertion of Gregorian Chant, but am now curious to know how many people liked it. One of the most basic human need is for refreshing new experiences.

This Sunday I was invited to a church that began with about 20 minutes of hymns. After the 4th one, I felt irritable and tired of standing. If only they had interspersed all that singing with prayer, Scripture reading, of some sort of liuurgical repetition for the sake of variety!
 
Mystic said:
Your response reflects my own preferences exactly. Creative variety in worship is essential. I once softy played a tape of beautiful Gregorian Chant during our time of silent meditation. I loved the effect. A Catholic man used to come to my church after Mass in time for my sermon. His wife was a leader in my church. But I'm still haunted by what he told me. He confessed, "I prefer the Catholic Mass because it's basically the same every Sunday and I love the same old routine." I thought to myself, "Wow, you're tastes are surely different from mine." My church wanted me to lead them in reciting the Lord's Prayer every Sunday. Yet until I did a 4-week sermon series on the various lines of the prayer, most of my people didn't know the subtleties of what it means. I think the weekly recitation deadened the spirit when we kept up this repetition. I think the only solution is the right kind of feedback mechanism that reacts to novelties is worship. I never received much feedback on my insertion of Gregorian Chant, but am now curious to know how many people liked it. One of the most basic human need is for refreshing new experiences.

This Sunday I was invited to a church that began with about 20 minutes of hymns. After the 4th one, I felt irritable and tired of standing. If only they had interspersed all that singing with prayer, Scripture reading, of some sort of liuurgical repetition for the sake of variety!
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That does sound like too much standing. I always sit after the third song.
 
Mystic said:
This Sunday I was invited to a church that began with about 20 minutes of hymns. After the 4th one, I felt irritable and tired of standing.
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:eek:

I mean, I have been in services that were basically hymn songs but they usually broke thing up a bit and didn't expect you to stand for all of them.

Personally, I like a basic framework but lots of wiggle room within that structure. The UU fellowship largely had that and weren't averse to mixing things up now and then. So I had services where I dispensed with a traditional sermon in favour of readings and reflection and that sort of thing. Or we had services that were more interactive, with the congregation being invited to contribute in some way (and this group was cool with doing that).
That's one thing I am not sure about with going to UCCan again. Two services already and the "beats" were almost identical.
 
Some variety is something I too enjoy but I definitely want some congregational singing, and spontaneous prayer to occur, and definitely a sermon rooted in God's word.
 
Lutherans with a German heritage (as opposed to Scandinavians, who are high church) sing seated. Until nowadays it's weird for me to stand up to sing.
Are/were you a UU Minister @Mendalla ?
 
Jae said:
Some variety is something I too enjoy but I definitely want some congregational singing, and spontaneous prayer to occur, and definitely a sermon rooted in God's word.
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I'm not into spontaneous prayer, but agree with the rest. I also like traditional liturgical elements such as confession, kyrie and Gloria.
 
So, ours is structured: Welcome, Acknowledgment of Territory, Opening Hymn (tends to be something lively, even clapp-y), then greeting fellow worshippers. Christ Candle. Opening Prayer, usually responsive. Choir's presentation, children's time (a story, then a kid-friendly hymn followed by them heading off to Jr Church). Prayer of Accountability, Words of Affirmation. Scripture - read, paraphrased or acted. Message. Silent Reflection. Joys & Sorrow. Offering. Prayers of the people, sometimes ending in Lord's Prayer in a variety of translations, sometimes sung. Final hymn, benediction, including blessing on the meal if we're about to have a potluck, then choral benediction, sometimes just the 5 amens.
 
Prayers of the people is the big extemperaneous one, where she considers the prayer list, things that have happened since the prayer list was finalized Friday, and things that might have come up during Joys and Sorrows.
 
GiancarloZ said:
Are/were you a UU Minister @Mendalla ?
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Nope. UUs have a long, strong tradition of lay leadership in the pulpit. Some, like Sarnia-Port Huron, have never had professional clergy. Others have it only part-time and rely on lay leadership for other Sundays (that's where the London fellowship is at right now). I used to lead 2-3 services a year myself, plus helped others with their services by acting as a "service leader", doing things like announcements, offertory, and such while the "worship leader" focussed on the sermon, meditations/prayers, and such.
 
My Lutheran congregation order of service is:
Centering for Worship with territory acknowledgement
Announcements
Gathering hymn
Apostolic greeting
Hymn of praise
Prayer of the day
Children's message
Sharing the peace
Bible readings
Sermon
Hymn of the day
Creed
Prayers of the people
Offertory
Holy communion and communion songs
Blessing
Sending song

All this parts include responsive readings which rarely change. Most people seem to love that it's all the same. This congregation has amazing music, though, and are not obsessed with old hymnals.
 
When well--acted, brief skits with good dialogue and a provocative spiritual point can add a lot. But that takes talent.

Our prayer time was usually structured: Expression of Joys and Concerns, Time of Silent Prayer, Pastoral Prayer. But too often the Joys were social announcements or news like "My son is visiting from Seattle." What I hoped for was more personal testimonies--sharing on people's spiritual struggles and triumphs. But at their best, such sharing could be the highlight of the service. Abuses make it advisable to require advanced notice to be given to the pastor because some people abuse personal sharing just to gain attention.
 
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