BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
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Unsafe, which bible is the "True" bible? The original Catholic bible with the Apocrypha, or the Protestant bible? I'm trying to get a simple answer here, and I'm having some difficulties.
Resolution - to read the Bible
- Thread starter Seeler
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unsafe
Well-Known Member
unsafe says -----I don't classify any denomination as the correct Bible BetteTheRed --------God doesn't have a denomination ------so that is my final simple answer to your Question -----The Word of truth doesn't need a Denomination ------The word of truth is contained in God's Book the Bible Period -----The Bible is neither Catholic or Protestant --it is the Truth from God Himself -------that is what scripture says ----If you have a problem with that ---Well That is your Problem not Mime
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Right, but Bette's point is that there is not a fixed book called "The Bible". What constitutes scripture is defined slightly differently by different groups of Christians. All she is asking is what definition you follow. For instance, is 1 Maccabees, to use one example, considered to be in The Bible for you?
unsafe
Well-Known Member
Mendalla --Thanks for the Clarification -----Your Quote ------Right, but Bette's point is that there is not a fixed book called "The Bible". What constitutes scripture is defined slightly differently by different groups of Christians. All she is asking is what definition you follow. For instance, is 1 Maccabees, to use one example, considered to be in The Bible for you?
unsafe says -------This is what I found on the 1 Maccabees ---So no I do not consider these God's word cause it says it was written by a Jewish Author -----according to this
1 Maccabees is a deuterocanonical book of the Bible which was written by a Jewish (pre-Christian) author, probably about 100 BC, after the restoration of an independent Jewish kingdom. It is accepted in the Catholic and Orthodox canons. Protestants and Jews regard it as generally reliable history, but not a part of Scripture. Some Protestants consequently regard 1 Maccabees as part of the Apocrypha, useful for reading in the church.
unsafe says ----these books here below ---I would have to research each one to see where these came from -----I am a Digger and a Checker --and a Researcher on any books that people might think is part of God's word of truth ---any Books written by man alone is off limits as being truth as far as I am concerned when it comes to adding to God's Word ----- ------and there are Grave warnings in God's Word about Adding and Subtracting from His Word ------
--- if any of these books SAY they are God Inspired and No Prophesy in these books were given by man then I would say they are from God
----If they Don't SAY they were God Inspired and No Prophesy in these books were given by man then I would conclude Man alone wrote these books ------
unsafe says ----None of these Books are in any Bibles I have ------
The deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament are:
unsafe says ---If these books are not God Inspired and the Church is adding man driven books with His truth ---I wouldn't want to be them
Revelation 22:18-19 (EXB)
18 I ·warn [testify to] everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this ·book [scroll]: If anyone adds anything to these words, God will add to that person the ·disasters [plagues] written about in this ·book [scroll]. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this ·book [scroll] of prophecy, God will take away that one’s ·share [part] of the tree of life and of the holy city, which are written about in this ·book [scroll; Deut. 4:2; 12:32].
unsafe says and posted -----I found this on got questions seems to sum it up for me ---Wisdom (also called the Wisdom of Solomon)
What is the Wisdom of Solomon?
Question: "What is the Wisdom of Solomon?"
Answer: The Wisdom of Solomon, also called the Book of Wisdom, is one of the books of the Apocrypha. Others in the group include 1 and 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 and 2 Maccabees. Most of the books of the Apocrypha are accepted by the Roman Catholic Church and are included in Catholic Bibles. The Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books teach many things that are not true and are not historically accurate. The Roman Catholic Church officially added the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals to their Bible at the Council of Trent in the mid-1500s AD, primarily in response to the Protestant Reformation. None of the apocryphal books are included in the canon of Scripture.
The Wisdom of Solomon was believed by some to have been written by King Solomon, although his name appears nowhere in the text. However, the early church rejected the authorship of Solomon; an ancient manuscript known as the Muratorian fragment refers to the Wisdom of Solomon as having been written by “the friends of Solomon in his honor.” It is widely accepted today, even by the Catholic Church, that Solomon did not write the book, which dates back to the 1st or 2nd century BC, many centuries after the death of Solomon.
While Solomon wrote much on the subject of wisdom in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, he never elevated it to the status of part of the Godhead, a philosophy found in The Wisdom of Solomon. The book refers to Wisdom in terms the Bible reserves for the Messiah, saying, “She [wisdom] is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness” (Wisdom 7:26). The book of Hebrews reserves such accolades for the Son of God, who “is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being” (Hebrews 1:3). Even more egregious, Wisdom 9:18 says that salvation is an act of wisdom, whereas Scripture is clear that salvation is by faith, a gift of God to those whom He calls, justifies, and sanctifies (Ephesians 2:8–9; Romans 8:30). In fact, if man were to depend upon his “wisdom” for salvation, we would be lost forever with no hope because the unredeemed are dead in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1–4) and their minds are darkened (Ephesians 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:14) and their heart deceitful and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9).
The apocryphal books are accepted by the Roman Catholic Church because many of the books teach Catholic doctrines that are not in agreement with the Bible, including praying for the dead, petitioning Mary to intercede with the Father, worshiping angels, and alms-giving as atonement for sins. Some of what the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals say is true and correct. However, due to the historical and theological errors, the books, including The Wisdom of Solomon, must be viewed as fallible historical and religious documents, not as the inspired, authoritative Word of God.
This 1 mim 50 second video on the one true Bible ------
The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its stories are true, and its decisions are immutable. It contains Light to direct, food to support, and comfort to cheer. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mind of wealth, it is health to the soul, and a river of pleasure. Pray it in, read it through, live it out, and pass it on!
unsafe says -------This is what I found on the 1 Maccabees ---So no I do not consider these God's word cause it says it was written by a Jewish Author -----according to this
1 Maccabees is a deuterocanonical book of the Bible which was written by a Jewish (pre-Christian) author, probably about 100 BC, after the restoration of an independent Jewish kingdom. It is accepted in the Catholic and Orthodox canons. Protestants and Jews regard it as generally reliable history, but not a part of Scripture. Some Protestants consequently regard 1 Maccabees as part of the Apocrypha, useful for reading in the church.
unsafe says ----these books here below ---I would have to research each one to see where these came from -----I am a Digger and a Checker --and a Researcher on any books that people might think is part of God's word of truth ---any Books written by man alone is off limits as being truth as far as I am concerned when it comes to adding to God's Word ----- ------and there are Grave warnings in God's Word about Adding and Subtracting from His Word ------
--- if any of these books SAY they are God Inspired and No Prophesy in these books were given by man then I would say they are from God
----If they Don't SAY they were God Inspired and No Prophesy in these books were given by man then I would conclude Man alone wrote these books ------
unsafe says ----None of these Books are in any Bibles I have ------
The deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament are:
- Tobit.
- Judith.
- Wisdom (also called the Wisdom of Solomon)
- Sirach (also called Ecclesiasticus)
- Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)
- 1 Maccabees.
- 2 Maccabees.
- Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4 to 16:24)
unsafe says ---If these books are not God Inspired and the Church is adding man driven books with His truth ---I wouldn't want to be them
Revelation 22:18-19 (EXB)
18 I ·warn [testify to] everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this ·book [scroll]: If anyone adds anything to these words, God will add to that person the ·disasters [plagues] written about in this ·book [scroll]. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this ·book [scroll] of prophecy, God will take away that one’s ·share [part] of the tree of life and of the holy city, which are written about in this ·book [scroll; Deut. 4:2; 12:32].
unsafe says and posted -----I found this on got questions seems to sum it up for me ---Wisdom (also called the Wisdom of Solomon)
What is the Wisdom of Solomon?
Question: "What is the Wisdom of Solomon?"
Answer: The Wisdom of Solomon, also called the Book of Wisdom, is one of the books of the Apocrypha. Others in the group include 1 and 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 and 2 Maccabees. Most of the books of the Apocrypha are accepted by the Roman Catholic Church and are included in Catholic Bibles. The Apocrypha/Deuterocanonical books teach many things that are not true and are not historically accurate. The Roman Catholic Church officially added the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals to their Bible at the Council of Trent in the mid-1500s AD, primarily in response to the Protestant Reformation. None of the apocryphal books are included in the canon of Scripture.
The Wisdom of Solomon was believed by some to have been written by King Solomon, although his name appears nowhere in the text. However, the early church rejected the authorship of Solomon; an ancient manuscript known as the Muratorian fragment refers to the Wisdom of Solomon as having been written by “the friends of Solomon in his honor.” It is widely accepted today, even by the Catholic Church, that Solomon did not write the book, which dates back to the 1st or 2nd century BC, many centuries after the death of Solomon.
While Solomon wrote much on the subject of wisdom in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, he never elevated it to the status of part of the Godhead, a philosophy found in The Wisdom of Solomon. The book refers to Wisdom in terms the Bible reserves for the Messiah, saying, “She [wisdom] is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness” (Wisdom 7:26). The book of Hebrews reserves such accolades for the Son of God, who “is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being” (Hebrews 1:3). Even more egregious, Wisdom 9:18 says that salvation is an act of wisdom, whereas Scripture is clear that salvation is by faith, a gift of God to those whom He calls, justifies, and sanctifies (Ephesians 2:8–9; Romans 8:30). In fact, if man were to depend upon his “wisdom” for salvation, we would be lost forever with no hope because the unredeemed are dead in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1–4) and their minds are darkened (Ephesians 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:14) and their heart deceitful and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9).
The apocryphal books are accepted by the Roman Catholic Church because many of the books teach Catholic doctrines that are not in agreement with the Bible, including praying for the dead, petitioning Mary to intercede with the Father, worshiping angels, and alms-giving as atonement for sins. Some of what the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals say is true and correct. However, due to the historical and theological errors, the books, including The Wisdom of Solomon, must be viewed as fallible historical and religious documents, not as the inspired, authoritative Word of God.
This 1 mim 50 second video on the one true Bible ------
The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its stories are true, and its decisions are immutable. It contains Light to direct, food to support, and comfort to cheer. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mind of wealth, it is health to the soul, and a river of pleasure. Pray it in, read it through, live it out, and pass it on!
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
unsafe, I understand where your position comes from, but I'm not sure you do. You tell me that the Bible is the fixed bible, written by god as one scripture for all time. In that case, you should be accepting the Catholic Bible, with the Apocrypha, as the "real" bible. It is the original and first, bible. The Protestants went back and reversed earlier church decisions about what was scripture and what wasn't. I think if you don't understand the context, and the mechanisms, by which these texts became our Holy Scriptures, you don't understand what you believe.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
First Corinthians, Chapter 7 ff.
Paul continues giving advice and guidance to the people of Coriinth.
A single man, he gives advice on marriage. Actually, he considers it better not to marry. Paul thinks the end times are coming soon and people should remain as they are until that time. However, it is better to be married than to burn with passion.
Another reason For remaining unmarried is divided loyalties – concerns of a husband for his wife or a wife for her husband competing with serving the Lord.
Paul has been criticized for his attitudes towards women. However, the radical Paul in the genuine letters, seems to treat both women and men equally. Instructions for a woman are balanced with instructions for a man and vice versa. The same holds true for Paul giving advice to slaves or masters. Paul seems to have treated women and slaves as fellow workers.
Many women are named in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, and many of those named held leadership positions among the followers. In fact Paul's instructions to women or men speaking in the gatherings are very similar. What then are we to make all first Corinthians 14, 33b - 36? Women be silent in church'. This contradicts what is happening in the churches Paul established. In fact it is very similar to first Timothy 2: 11 - 15. It actually meets all the criteria for something inserted at a later time.
How can this happen? It's easy to imagine. Letters were passed around from one church to another, copies were made as the originals wore out or extra copies were needed. Copying was done by hand and scribes got tired. A scribe making a copy from a copy notices a note in the margin. ''Timothy 2' he checks it out. And being conscientious follow, he writes a few lines from Timothy in the margin of Corinthians. Several years later another scribe incorporates this quotation into the letter and for the next 2000 years and counting is considered part of Paul's writing.
Paul continues giving advice and guidance to the people of Coriinth.
A single man, he gives advice on marriage. Actually, he considers it better not to marry. Paul thinks the end times are coming soon and people should remain as they are until that time. However, it is better to be married than to burn with passion.
Another reason For remaining unmarried is divided loyalties – concerns of a husband for his wife or a wife for her husband competing with serving the Lord.
Paul has been criticized for his attitudes towards women. However, the radical Paul in the genuine letters, seems to treat both women and men equally. Instructions for a woman are balanced with instructions for a man and vice versa. The same holds true for Paul giving advice to slaves or masters. Paul seems to have treated women and slaves as fellow workers.
Many women are named in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, and many of those named held leadership positions among the followers. In fact Paul's instructions to women or men speaking in the gatherings are very similar. What then are we to make all first Corinthians 14, 33b - 36? Women be silent in church'. This contradicts what is happening in the churches Paul established. In fact it is very similar to first Timothy 2: 11 - 15. It actually meets all the criteria for something inserted at a later time.
How can this happen? It's easy to imagine. Letters were passed around from one church to another, copies were made as the originals wore out or extra copies were needed. Copying was done by hand and scribes got tired. A scribe making a copy from a copy notices a note in the margin. ''Timothy 2' he checks it out. And being conscientious follow, he writes a few lines from Timothy in the margin of Corinthians. Several years later another scribe incorporates this quotation into the letter and for the next 2000 years and counting is considered part of Paul's writing.
unsafe
Well-Known Member
BetteTheRed ------unsafe says ------I understand your Position as you don't believe God's word is truth --- ---this is what is contained in my Bibles and I am just fine with these Books listed below thank You ------I am not fine with These being the word of God ---The deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament ---if you and others want to follow these books go ahead ---I personally don't follow the Catholics or Protestants -and if there Bibles contain any other Books than what is listed below --I would definitely not want to have one of their Bibles -----So That Is That ----- Believe as you will ----I will stick to my Bible which is God's word -----we are far apart in our belief systems ------
The Books of the Bible
The 66 Books of the Bible - Study Resources
Order Book Title(s) Chapters Verses
I. Law
1. The First Book of Moses Called Genesis 50 1,533
2. The Second Book of Moses Called Exodus 40 1,213
3. The Third Book of Moses Called Leviticus 27 859
4. The Fourth Book of Moses Called Numbers 36 1,288
5. The Fifth Book of Moses Called Deuteronomy 34 959
II. Old Testament Narrative
6. The Book of Joshua 24 658
7. The Book of Judges 21 618
8. The Book of Ruth 4 85
9. The First Book of Samuel 31 810
10. The Second Book of Samuel 24 695
11. The First Book of Kings 22 816
12. The Second Book of Kings 25 719
13. The First Book of Chronicles 29 942
14. The Second Book of Chronicles 36 822
15. The Book of Ezra 10 280
16. The Book of Nehemiah 13 406
17. The Book of Esther 10 167
III. Wisdom Literature
18. The Book of Job 42 1,070
19. The Book of Psalms 150 2,461
20. The Book of Proverbs 31 915
21. The Book of Ecclesiastes 12 222
22.
The Song of Songs (or Song of Solomon or Canticles)
8 117
IV. Major Prophets
23. The Book of Isaiah 66 1,292
24. The Book of Jeremiah 52 1,364
25. The Book of Lamentations 5 154
26. The Book of Ezekiel 48 1,273
27. The Book of Daniel 12 357
V. Minor Prophets
28. The Book of Hosea 14 197
29. The Book of Joel 3 73
30. The Book of Amos 9 146
31. The Book of Obadiah 1 21
32. The Book of Jonah 4 48
33. The Book of Micah 7 105
34. The Book of Nahum 3 47
35. The Book of Habakkuk 3 56
36. The Book of Zephaniah 3 53
37. The Book of Haggai 2 38
38. The Book of Zechariah 14 211
39. The Book of Malachi 4 55
VI. New Testament Narrative
40. The Gospel According to Matthew 28 1,071
41. The Gospel According to Mark 16 678
42. The Gospel According to Luke 24 1,151
43. The Gospel According to John 21 879
44. The Acts of the Apostles 28 1,007
VII. Pauline Epistles
45. The Epistle of Paul to the Romans 16 433
46. The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians 16 437
47. The Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians 13 257
48. The Epistle of Paul to the Galatians 6 149
49. The Epistle of Paul to the Ephesians 6 155
50. The Epistle of Paul to the Philippians 4 104
51. The Epistle of Paul to the Colossians 4 95
52. The First Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians 5 89
53. The Second Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians 3 47
54. The First Epistle of Paul to Timothy 6 113
55. The Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy 4 83
56. The Epistle of Paul to Titus 3 46
57. The Epistle of Paul to Philemon 1 25
VIII. General Epistles
58. The Epistle to the Hebrews 13 303
59. The General Epistle of James 5 108
60. The First Epistle of Peter 5 105
61. The Second Epistle of Peter 3 61
62. The First Epistle of John 5 105
63. The Second Epistle of John 1 13
64. The Third Epistle of John 1 14
65. The Epistle of Jude 1 25
IX. Apocalyptic Epistle
66.
The Book of Revelation (or The Apocalypse of John)
unsafe posted ---Interesting Video 8 min 44 seconds ----unsafe says ----Now BetteTheRed You can find one that is for these books being included in the Bible -----this guy says they shouldn't be included ----I agree with this man ------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCghP1gdE_uvDUKkPP3ucf3A
CARM Videos
Published on Sep 2, 2011
SUBSCRIBE 15K
Ryan Turner of http://carm.org discusses the Apocrypha and why it should not be considered scripture.
Reasons why the Apocrypha does not belong in the Bible
The Books of the Bible
The 66 Books of the Bible - Study Resources
Order Book Title(s) Chapters Verses
I. Law
1. The First Book of Moses Called Genesis 50 1,533
2. The Second Book of Moses Called Exodus 40 1,213
3. The Third Book of Moses Called Leviticus 27 859
4. The Fourth Book of Moses Called Numbers 36 1,288
5. The Fifth Book of Moses Called Deuteronomy 34 959
II. Old Testament Narrative
6. The Book of Joshua 24 658
7. The Book of Judges 21 618
8. The Book of Ruth 4 85
9. The First Book of Samuel 31 810
10. The Second Book of Samuel 24 695
11. The First Book of Kings 22 816
12. The Second Book of Kings 25 719
13. The First Book of Chronicles 29 942
14. The Second Book of Chronicles 36 822
15. The Book of Ezra 10 280
16. The Book of Nehemiah 13 406
17. The Book of Esther 10 167
III. Wisdom Literature
18. The Book of Job 42 1,070
19. The Book of Psalms 150 2,461
20. The Book of Proverbs 31 915
21. The Book of Ecclesiastes 12 222
22.
The Song of Songs (or Song of Solomon or Canticles)
8 117
IV. Major Prophets
23. The Book of Isaiah 66 1,292
24. The Book of Jeremiah 52 1,364
25. The Book of Lamentations 5 154
26. The Book of Ezekiel 48 1,273
27. The Book of Daniel 12 357
V. Minor Prophets
28. The Book of Hosea 14 197
29. The Book of Joel 3 73
30. The Book of Amos 9 146
31. The Book of Obadiah 1 21
32. The Book of Jonah 4 48
33. The Book of Micah 7 105
34. The Book of Nahum 3 47
35. The Book of Habakkuk 3 56
36. The Book of Zephaniah 3 53
37. The Book of Haggai 2 38
38. The Book of Zechariah 14 211
39. The Book of Malachi 4 55
VI. New Testament Narrative
40. The Gospel According to Matthew 28 1,071
41. The Gospel According to Mark 16 678
42. The Gospel According to Luke 24 1,151
43. The Gospel According to John 21 879
44. The Acts of the Apostles 28 1,007
VII. Pauline Epistles
45. The Epistle of Paul to the Romans 16 433
46. The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians 16 437
47. The Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians 13 257
48. The Epistle of Paul to the Galatians 6 149
49. The Epistle of Paul to the Ephesians 6 155
50. The Epistle of Paul to the Philippians 4 104
51. The Epistle of Paul to the Colossians 4 95
52. The First Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians 5 89
53. The Second Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians 3 47
54. The First Epistle of Paul to Timothy 6 113
55. The Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy 4 83
56. The Epistle of Paul to Titus 3 46
57. The Epistle of Paul to Philemon 1 25
VIII. General Epistles
58. The Epistle to the Hebrews 13 303
59. The General Epistle of James 5 108
60. The First Epistle of Peter 5 105
61. The Second Epistle of Peter 3 61
62. The First Epistle of John 5 105
63. The Second Epistle of John 1 13
64. The Third Epistle of John 1 14
65. The Epistle of Jude 1 25
IX. Apocalyptic Epistle
66.
The Book of Revelation (or The Apocalypse of John)
unsafe posted ---Interesting Video 8 min 44 seconds ----unsafe says ----Now BetteTheRed You can find one that is for these books being included in the Bible -----this guy says they shouldn't be included ----I agree with this man ------
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCghP1gdE_uvDUKkPP3ucf3A
CARM Videos
Published on Sep 2, 2011
SUBSCRIBE 15K
Ryan Turner of http://carm.org discusses the Apocrypha and why it should not be considered scripture.
Reasons why the Apocrypha does not belong in the Bible
Seeler
Well-Known Member
Apparently some of the people in Corinth have been questioning Paul's right call himself an apostle. He defends himself and claims that he has seen the Lord and has every right to call himself an apostle and to be supported by the followers. However he chooses to work and earn his own living so as not to be a burden on them.
Paul instructs Corinthians on the proper way to share in the Lord's supper.
He next writes about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and explains that there are many kinds of gifts. Using the human body is an example of the folly of comparing the hand to the foot were the eye of the ear to comparing the gifts of prophecy, healing, speaking in tongues, interpreting, etc. all are important.
In the well-known chapters 13, Paul claims that the gift of love is the most important.
Paul instructs Corinthians on the proper way to share in the Lord's supper.
He next writes about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and explains that there are many kinds of gifts. Using the human body is an example of the folly of comparing the hand to the foot were the eye of the ear to comparing the gifts of prophecy, healing, speaking in tongues, interpreting, etc. all are important.
In the well-known chapters 13, Paul claims that the gift of love is the most important.
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BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
Interesting. Lots of people claiming that Paul can't be an apostle. A noisy woman named unsafe claiming that another two women (seeler and bette) are not qualified to interpret scripture.
If we love you, unsafe, despite your rather wild demeanor, and I'm not really joking here - you present yourself as quite unlikeable - are you an apostle of love with us?
If we love you, unsafe, despite your rather wild demeanor, and I'm not really joking here - you present yourself as quite unlikeable - are you an apostle of love with us?
That is riotous
could cause wind storms in the heavens ... somewhat above the ground level of dirty essences ... fallout?Is a reciprocate icon ... an about face? Thus flakes fall from stone ... one chip at a time ...
Seeler
Well-Known Member
Actually Paul seems to have a poor opinion of those speaking in tongues. He says that he would rather be able to intelligibly to be able to communicate with others and speak 1000 words in tongues.
Paul speaks of the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. People should not concern themselves about what type of body they will have. Using the illustration of a seed dying in the ground to produce a new plant he explains that we will have new heavenly bodies.
Paul speaks of the resurrection of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. People should not concern themselves about what type of body they will have. Using the illustration of a seed dying in the ground to produce a new plant he explains that we will have new heavenly bodies.
Mendalla
Happy headbanging ape!!
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Speaking in tongues seems to me to be more about making an "impression" than conveying a message directly. There is a message, but it's not to be found in the babble (and that message might just be the rather self-centered, "Look at me! I'm channeling the Spirit. Cool, eh?"
). Paul, by contrast, is a wonderfully eloquent writer and possibly speaker (hard to tell since no one alive has heard him speak) and conveys his message in some wonderful prose. His Hellenistic education shows.Which is really the only sensible way resurrection could work, esp. if the resurrection isn't happening until some far off Judgement Day. Of course, one could argue that this is an early form of transhumanism, with our consciousness/soul being "downloaded/uploaded" into a new storage medium.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
As this letter reaches its conclusion, Paul speaks of collection the intake for the church in Jerusalem. He also mentions that he would like to visit again soon. Timothy 's visit is also mentioned, and several other people mentioned by name. Paul gives his final blessing in his own hand.
Speaking in tongues seems to me to be more about making an "impression" than conveying a message directly. There is a message, but it's not to be found in the babble (and that message might just be the rather self-centered, "Look at me! I'm channeling the Spirit. Cool, eh?"
Which is really the only sensible way resurrection could work, esp. if the resurrection isn't happening until some far off Judgement Day. Of course, one could argue that this is an early form of transhumanism, with our consciousness/soul being "downloaded/uploaded" into a new storage medium.
Is transhumanism an interaction of shocking nature with the essence of soul ... and shockingly some didn't grasp the dialectic, di Lexus and other dialogue between strange attributes of the inhuman thingy as is stretched out in an ongoing nature of language as it shifts and dies in some versions?
See: Language - Wikipedia
Tis quite a silent discourse as little said about the icons that appear Mayan, or even with some far eastern picture images ... characters ...
Language is a system that consists of the development, acquisition, maintenance and use of complex systems of communication, particularly the human ability to do so; and a language is any specific example of such a system.
The scientific study of language is called linguistics. Questions concerning the philosophy of language, such as whether words can represent experience, have been debated at least since Gorgias and Plato in ancient Greece. Thinkers such as Rousseau have argued that language originated from emotions while others like Kant have held that it originated from rational and logical thought. 20th-century philosophers such as Wittgenstein argued that philosophy is really the study of language. Major figures in linguistics include Ferdinand de Saussure and Noam Chomsky.
Estimates of the number of human languages in the world vary between 5,000 and 7,000. However, any precise estimate depends on a partly arbitrary distinction between languages and dialects. Natural languages are spoken or signed, but any language can be encoded into secondary media using auditory, visual, or tactile stimuli – for example, in whistling, signed, or braille. This is because human language is modality-independent. Depending on philosophical perspectives regarding the definition of language and meaning, when used as a general concept, "language" may refer to the cognitive ability to learn and use systems of complex communication, or to describe the set of rules that makes up these systems, or the set of utterances that can be produced from those rules. All languages rely on the process of semiosis to relate signs to particular meanings. Oral, manual and tactile languages contain a phonological system that governs how symbols are used to form sequences known as words or morphemes, and a syntactic system that governs how words and morphemes are combined to form phrases and utterances.
Human language has the properties of productivity and displacement, and relies entirely on social convention and learning. Its complex structure affords a much wider range of expressions than any known system of animal communication. Language is thought to have originated when early hominins started gradually changing their primate communication systems, acquiring the ability to form a theory of other minds and a shared intentionality.[1][2] This development is sometimes thought to have coincided with an increase in brain volume, and many linguists see the structures of language as having evolved to serve specific communicative and social functions. Language is processed in many different locations in the human brain, but especially in Broca's and Wernicke's areas. Humans acquire language through social interaction in early childhood, and children generally speak fluently by approximately three years old. The use of language is deeply entrenched in human culture. Therefore, in addition to its strictly communicative uses, language also has many social and cultural uses, such as signifying group identity, social stratification, as well as social grooming and entertainment.
Languages evolve and diversify over time, and the history of their evolution can be reconstructed by comparing modern languages to determine which traits their ancestral languages must have had in order for the later developmental stages to occur. A group of languages that descend from a common ancestor is known as a language family. The Indo-European family is the most widely spoken and includes languages as diverse as English, Russian and Hindi; the Sino-Tibetan family includes Mandarin, Bodo and the other Chinese languages, and Tibetan; the Afro-Asiatic family includes Arabic, Somali, and Hebrew; the Bantu languages include Swahili, and Zulu, and hundreds of other languages spoken throughout Africa; and the Malayo-Polynesian languages include Indonesian, Malay, Tagalog, and hundreds of other languages spoken throughout the Pacific. The languages of the Dravidian family, spoken mostly in Southern India, include Tamil Telugu and Kannada. Academic consensus holds that between 50% and 90% of languages spoken at the beginning of the 21st century will probably have become extinct by the year 2100.
For silence it was writ!
The scientific study of language is called linguistics. Questions concerning the philosophy of language, such as whether words can represent experience, have been debated at least since Gorgias and Plato in ancient Greece. Thinkers such as Rousseau have argued that language originated from emotions while others like Kant have held that it originated from rational and logical thought. 20th-century philosophers such as Wittgenstein argued that philosophy is really the study of language. Major figures in linguistics include Ferdinand de Saussure and Noam Chomsky.
Estimates of the number of human languages in the world vary between 5,000 and 7,000. However, any precise estimate depends on a partly arbitrary distinction between languages and dialects. Natural languages are spoken or signed, but any language can be encoded into secondary media using auditory, visual, or tactile stimuli – for example, in whistling, signed, or braille. This is because human language is modality-independent. Depending on philosophical perspectives regarding the definition of language and meaning, when used as a general concept, "language" may refer to the cognitive ability to learn and use systems of complex communication, or to describe the set of rules that makes up these systems, or the set of utterances that can be produced from those rules. All languages rely on the process of semiosis to relate signs to particular meanings. Oral, manual and tactile languages contain a phonological system that governs how symbols are used to form sequences known as words or morphemes, and a syntactic system that governs how words and morphemes are combined to form phrases and utterances.
Human language has the properties of productivity and displacement, and relies entirely on social convention and learning. Its complex structure affords a much wider range of expressions than any known system of animal communication. Language is thought to have originated when early hominins started gradually changing their primate communication systems, acquiring the ability to form a theory of other minds and a shared intentionality.[1][2] This development is sometimes thought to have coincided with an increase in brain volume, and many linguists see the structures of language as having evolved to serve specific communicative and social functions. Language is processed in many different locations in the human brain, but especially in Broca's and Wernicke's areas. Humans acquire language through social interaction in early childhood, and children generally speak fluently by approximately three years old. The use of language is deeply entrenched in human culture. Therefore, in addition to its strictly communicative uses, language also has many social and cultural uses, such as signifying group identity, social stratification, as well as social grooming and entertainment.
Languages evolve and diversify over time, and the history of their evolution can be reconstructed by comparing modern languages to determine which traits their ancestral languages must have had in order for the later developmental stages to occur. A group of languages that descend from a common ancestor is known as a language family. The Indo-European family is the most widely spoken and includes languages as diverse as English, Russian and Hindi; the Sino-Tibetan family includes Mandarin, Bodo and the other Chinese languages, and Tibetan; the Afro-Asiatic family includes Arabic, Somali, and Hebrew; the Bantu languages include Swahili, and Zulu, and hundreds of other languages spoken throughout Africa; and the Malayo-Polynesian languages include Indonesian, Malay, Tagalog, and hundreds of other languages spoken throughout the Pacific. The languages of the Dravidian family, spoken mostly in Southern India, include Tamil Telugu and Kannada. Academic consensus holds that between 50% and 90% of languages spoken at the beginning of the 21st century will probably have become extinct by the year 2100.
For silence it was writ!
Religiously it is a BS that should be powerfully avoided ... thus the deficient Arias noted ... dead Zoans (an Indo European Route that may properly be designated Goan as it leaves us; mystified)! Thus unknown going Son ... unless you can interpret old things like allayl ... leading to father's a'fire ... like ABBA .. a term for the absolute Ba .. in imaginary terms.
PS: I mentioned imagination in another string as something imperative for the singing of blues!
unsafe
Well-Known Member
BetteTheRed -------Your Quote ----- A noisy woman named unsafe claiming that another two women (seeler and bette) are not qualified to interpret scripture.
unsafe says ----you can shift the blame on me if you want to ----I have big shoulders I can handle that -----But here is the Thing ---unsafe didn't write the truth ---God did and this is what God says about interpreting scripture --------if you or Seeler or others have a problem with what God Says ---Talk to God NOT ME ------
unsafe says -and posted scripture ------up to you to read the whole chapter in context ----I provided the Link -----
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 4 - GOD’S WORD Translation
2 Corinthians 4 (GW)
Paul Is Never Discouraged
4 We don’t become discouraged, since God has given us this ministry through his mercy. 2 Instead, we have refused to use secret and shameful ways. We don’t use tricks, and we don’t distort God’s word. As God watches, we clearly reveal the truth to everyone. This is our letter of recommendation.
3 So if the Good News that we tell others is covered with a veil, it is hidden from those who are dying. 4 The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. As a result, they don’t see the light of the Good News about Christ’s glory. It is Christ who is God’s image.
5 Our message is not about ourselves. It is about Jesus Christ as the Lord. We are your servants for his sake. 6 We are his servants because the same God who said that light should shine out of darkness has given us light. For that reason we bring to light the knowledge about God’s glory which shines from Christ’s face.
unsafe says -----so we see there is an enemy loose BetteTheRed --Satan ----Satan's job is to keep people away from God -----it is his job to put thoughts in peoples minds that distort the truth ----
So we can Love the person themselves but not like what the person acts out or writes about God's truth to distort the meaning ---That Comes not from God but from Satan ----
-Seeler claims to be a Born Again Christian with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and on numerous occasions has said the Holy Spirit guides her -----Here most recent statement is proof of her thinking being not the same as God's truth -----for nowhere in scripture does it ever indicate that letters were copied from different sections of God's word to another ------So there is definitely a Spirit guiding her it is just not the Spirit of Light -----
Her Quote here from above ------
Many women are named in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, and many of those named held leadership positions among the followers. In fact Paul's instructions to women or men speaking in the gatherings are very similar. What then are we to make all first Corinthians 14, 33b - 36? Women be silent in church'. This contradicts what is happening in the churches Paul established. In fact it is very similar to first Timothy 2: 11 - 15. It actually meets all the criteria for something inserted at a later time.
How can this happen? It's easy to imagine. Letters were passed around from one church to another, copies were made as the originals wore out or extra copies were needed. Copying was done by hand and scribes got tired. A scribe making a copy from a copy notices a note in the margin. ''Timothy 2' he checks it out. And being conscientious follow, he writes a few lines from Timothy in the margin of Corinthians. Several years later another scribe incorporates this quotation into the letter and for the next 2000 years and counting is considered part of Paul's writing.
unsafe says ----
All of us Christ--ians are deemed Carnal Christians ----Our Spirit is changed but our Minds are still thinking like this world ------it is our responsibility to Mature in our thinking to be able to walk with Christ and have the same mind with Christ in our thinking ----our soul and Spirit are to line up to be the same as the mind of Christ and that takes a lot of work on our part ------So Seeler may very well have The Holy Spirit in her so her Spirit is Holy but her mind --her way of thinking is still in the WAY THE WORD THINKS ------and that is why she posts as she does ----
unsafe posted ------This is the Greek word for Carnal
4559. sarkikos ►
Strong's Concordance
sarkikos: pertaining to the flesh, carnal
σαρκικός, σαρκικῇ, σαρκικον (σάρξ), fleshly, carnal(Vulg.carnalis);
1. having the nature of flesh, i. e. under the control of the animal appetites (see σάρξ, 3), Romans 7:14 Rec. (see σάρκινος, 3); governed by mere human nature (see σάρξ, 4) not by the Spirit of God, 1 Corinthians 3:1, 3,
unsafe posted --Got Questions has a good article on this -----
What is a carnal Christian?
Question: "What is a carnal Christian?"
Answer: Can a true Christian be carnal? In answering this question, let’s first define the term “carnal.” The word “carnal” is translated from the Greek word sarkikos, which literally means “fleshly.” This descriptive word is seen in the context of Christians in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. In this passage, the apostle Paul is addressing the readers as “brethren,” a term he uses almost exclusively to refer to other Christians; he then goes on to describe them as “carnal.” Therefore, we can conclude that Christians can be carnal. The Bible is absolutely clear that no one is sinless (1 John 1:8). Every time we sin, we are acting carnally.
The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). Such a concept is completely unbiblical. James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Ephesians 2:8-10declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.
Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away (see John 10:28; Romans 8:37-39; 1 John 5:13). Even in 1 Corinthians 3:15, the carnal Christian is assured of salvation: “If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).
Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.
unsafe says ----Note Here unsafe didn't say this the Article did ------unsafe is reposting from the article
unsafe says ------This is worth repeating from the article ------- The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, -------but whether that person was truly saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).
unsafe says --and posted scripture
True Christians are to change the way they think ------Read the whole Chapter for your self in context -------
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 12 - GOD’S WORD Translation
Romans 12 (GW)
Dedicate Your Lives to God
12 Brothers and sisters, in view of all we have just shared about God’s compassion, I encourage you to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, dedicated to God and pleasing to him. This kind of worship is appropriate for you. 2 Don’t become like the people of this world. Instead, change the way you think. Then you will always be able to determine what God really wants—what is good, pleasing, and perfect.
unsafe says ----you can shift the blame on me if you want to ----I have big shoulders I can handle that -----But here is the Thing ---unsafe didn't write the truth ---God did and this is what God says about interpreting scripture --------if you or Seeler or others have a problem with what God Says ---Talk to God NOT ME ------
unsafe says -and posted scripture ------up to you to read the whole chapter in context ----I provided the Link -----
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 4 - GOD’S WORD Translation
2 Corinthians 4 (GW)
Paul Is Never Discouraged
4 We don’t become discouraged, since God has given us this ministry through his mercy. 2 Instead, we have refused to use secret and shameful ways. We don’t use tricks, and we don’t distort God’s word. As God watches, we clearly reveal the truth to everyone. This is our letter of recommendation.
3 So if the Good News that we tell others is covered with a veil, it is hidden from those who are dying. 4 The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. As a result, they don’t see the light of the Good News about Christ’s glory. It is Christ who is God’s image.
5 Our message is not about ourselves. It is about Jesus Christ as the Lord. We are your servants for his sake. 6 We are his servants because the same God who said that light should shine out of darkness has given us light. For that reason we bring to light the knowledge about God’s glory which shines from Christ’s face.
unsafe says -----so we see there is an enemy loose BetteTheRed --Satan ----Satan's job is to keep people away from God -----it is his job to put thoughts in peoples minds that distort the truth ----
So we can Love the person themselves but not like what the person acts out or writes about God's truth to distort the meaning ---That Comes not from God but from Satan ----
-Seeler claims to be a Born Again Christian with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and on numerous occasions has said the Holy Spirit guides her -----Here most recent statement is proof of her thinking being not the same as God's truth -----for nowhere in scripture does it ever indicate that letters were copied from different sections of God's word to another ------So there is definitely a Spirit guiding her it is just not the Spirit of Light -----
Her Quote here from above ------
Many women are named in Paul's letter to the Corinthians, and many of those named held leadership positions among the followers. In fact Paul's instructions to women or men speaking in the gatherings are very similar. What then are we to make all first Corinthians 14, 33b - 36? Women be silent in church'. This contradicts what is happening in the churches Paul established. In fact it is very similar to first Timothy 2: 11 - 15. It actually meets all the criteria for something inserted at a later time.
How can this happen? It's easy to imagine. Letters were passed around from one church to another, copies were made as the originals wore out or extra copies were needed. Copying was done by hand and scribes got tired. A scribe making a copy from a copy notices a note in the margin. ''Timothy 2' he checks it out. And being conscientious follow, he writes a few lines from Timothy in the margin of Corinthians. Several years later another scribe incorporates this quotation into the letter and for the next 2000 years and counting is considered part of Paul's writing.
unsafe says ----
All of us Christ--ians are deemed Carnal Christians ----Our Spirit is changed but our Minds are still thinking like this world ------it is our responsibility to Mature in our thinking to be able to walk with Christ and have the same mind with Christ in our thinking ----our soul and Spirit are to line up to be the same as the mind of Christ and that takes a lot of work on our part ------So Seeler may very well have The Holy Spirit in her so her Spirit is Holy but her mind --her way of thinking is still in the WAY THE WORD THINKS ------and that is why she posts as she does ----
unsafe posted ------This is the Greek word for Carnal
4559. sarkikos ►
Strong's Concordance
sarkikos: pertaining to the flesh, carnal
σαρκικός, σαρκικῇ, σαρκικον (σάρξ), fleshly, carnal(Vulg.carnalis);
1. having the nature of flesh, i. e. under the control of the animal appetites (see σάρξ, 3), Romans 7:14 Rec. (see σάρκινος, 3); governed by mere human nature (see σάρξ, 4) not by the Spirit of God, 1 Corinthians 3:1, 3,
unsafe posted --Got Questions has a good article on this -----
What is a carnal Christian?
Question: "What is a carnal Christian?"
Answer: Can a true Christian be carnal? In answering this question, let’s first define the term “carnal.” The word “carnal” is translated from the Greek word sarkikos, which literally means “fleshly.” This descriptive word is seen in the context of Christians in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. In this passage, the apostle Paul is addressing the readers as “brethren,” a term he uses almost exclusively to refer to other Christians; he then goes on to describe them as “carnal.” Therefore, we can conclude that Christians can be carnal. The Bible is absolutely clear that no one is sinless (1 John 1:8). Every time we sin, we are acting carnally.
The key thing to understand is that while a Christian can be, for a time, carnal, a true Christian will not remain carnal for a lifetime. Some have abused the idea of a “carnal Christian” by saying that it is possible for people to come to faith in Christ and then proceed to live the rest of their lives in a completely carnal manner, with no evidence of being born again or a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). Such a concept is completely unbiblical. James 2 makes it abundantly clear that genuine faith will always result in good works. Ephesians 2:8-10declares that while we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, that salvation will result in works. Can a Christian, in a time of failure and/or rebellion, appear to be carnal? Yes. Will a true Christian remain carnal? No.
Since eternal security is a fact of Scripture, even the carnal Christian is still saved. Salvation cannot be lost, because salvation is a gift of God that He will not take away (see John 10:28; Romans 8:37-39; 1 John 5:13). Even in 1 Corinthians 3:15, the carnal Christian is assured of salvation: “If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, but whether that person was truly saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).
Christians who become carnal in their behavior can expect God to lovingly discipline them (Hebrews 12:5-11) so they can be restored to close fellowship with Him and be trained to obey Him. God’s desire in saving us is that we would progressively grow closer to the image of Christ (Romans 12:1-2), becoming increasingly spiritual and decreasingly carnal, a process known as sanctification. Until we are delivered from our sinful flesh, there will be outbreaks of carnality. For a genuine believer in Christ, though, these outbreaks of carnality will be the exception, not the rule.
unsafe says ----Note Here unsafe didn't say this the Article did ------unsafe is reposting from the article
unsafe says ------This is worth repeating from the article ------- The question is not whether a person who claims to be a Christian but lives carnally has lost his salvation, -------but whether that person was truly saved in the first place (1 John 2:19).
unsafe says --and posted scripture
True Christians are to change the way they think ------Read the whole Chapter for your self in context -------
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 12 - GOD’S WORD Translation
Romans 12 (GW)
Dedicate Your Lives to God
12 Brothers and sisters, in view of all we have just shared about God’s compassion, I encourage you to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, dedicated to God and pleasing to him. This kind of worship is appropriate for you. 2 Don’t become like the people of this world. Instead, change the way you think. Then you will always be able to determine what God really wants—what is good, pleasing, and perfect.
Seeler
Well-Known Member
Second Corinthians – a letter from Paul to the church in Corinth.
This letter reads as though it is part of a larger body of correspondence between Paul and the church at Corinth. Paul greets the church and speaks of comfort at a time problems that prevent him from making a planned visit at this time.
Paul speaks of previous letter he wrote that may have grieved the people of Corinth. He apparently regret the tone of the letter. We do not have a copy unless it is incorporated into this letter. Paul now speaks of forgiveness.
Paul speaks off the hope he has in the new covenant. When Moses received, he had to hide his face so not to gaze upon the glory of God; Paul has seen God face to face.
Paul speaks power of God and of his own weakness.He says that they are hard pressed on every side but not crushed, perplexed but not in despair, persecuted but not abandon, struck down but not destroyed. Therefore they will not lose heart.
Paul speaks of waiting for a spiritual body in times which he expects will soon come.Meanwhile he speaks of reconciliation.
Interestingly, in chapter 6, we find Paul inserts several quotes from the Hebrew Scriptures in Paul's letter. (Something I also found when reading the Gospels).
Paul speaks of the problems he has endured, includng beatings, stoning, imprisonment, being shipwrecked and drifting at sea.
Paul accuses the Corinthians of withholding their affection for him. He warns them against idolatry. Again quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures Paul says "as God has said: 'I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God and they will be my people.'"
This letter reads as though it is part of a larger body of correspondence between Paul and the church at Corinth. Paul greets the church and speaks of comfort at a time problems that prevent him from making a planned visit at this time.
Paul speaks of previous letter he wrote that may have grieved the people of Corinth. He apparently regret the tone of the letter. We do not have a copy unless it is incorporated into this letter. Paul now speaks of forgiveness.
Paul speaks off the hope he has in the new covenant. When Moses received, he had to hide his face so not to gaze upon the glory of God; Paul has seen God face to face.
Paul speaks power of God and of his own weakness.He says that they are hard pressed on every side but not crushed, perplexed but not in despair, persecuted but not abandon, struck down but not destroyed. Therefore they will not lose heart.
Paul speaks of waiting for a spiritual body in times which he expects will soon come.Meanwhile he speaks of reconciliation.
Interestingly, in chapter 6, we find Paul inserts several quotes from the Hebrew Scriptures in Paul's letter. (Something I also found when reading the Gospels).
Paul speaks of the problems he has endured, includng beatings, stoning, imprisonment, being shipwrecked and drifting at sea.
Paul accuses the Corinthians of withholding their affection for him. He warns them against idolatry. Again quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures Paul says "as God has said: 'I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God and they will be my people.'"
Seeler
Well-Known Member
In chapter 7, there seems to be a break in the tone of the letter. Paul speaks of joy and tells the people that he takes great pride in them. 'I am greatly encouraged; in all our troubles my joy knows no bounds.' Could this indicate that parts of two letters were combined in second Corinthians? In the previous chapter, Paul accuses the Corinthians of withholding affection for him; now he says 'so even though I wrote to you, it was neither on account of the one who did the wrong on account of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourself how devoted to us you are. By all this we are encouraged'
unsafe
Well-Known Member
unsafe says and Posting from Blue Letter Bible -----This is in regard to the confusion of 2 Corinthians and the letter from Paul ----You should read all as I only posted from 2 Corinthians ---1 Corinthians is also there ----I provided the link
: THE EPISTLES TO THE CORINTHIANS
Introduction to the Epistles to the Corinthians - Study Resources
Much more debate has arisen in regards to the unity of 2 Corinthians. Many scholars say that this epistle was not originally a single work, but is at least made up of parts of two individual letters. Brown states, "Among the letters in the Pauline corpus, the unity of II Cor has been the most challenged.…" [4] One of the most popular views among scholars is that 2 Cor. 10-13 is actually a part of the "severe letter" that was mentioned above. The reason why some scholars adhere to this view is based on the difference between 2 Cor. 1-9 and 10-13. The first section has a sense of optimism, while the second has one of pessimism. Paul is first excited and has "perfect confidence" in them (2 Cor. 7:16), but in 10-13 he says, "For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish" (2 Cor. 12:20).
The last four chapters of the epistle do seem to fit the content of what we would expect of the "severe letter," but the evidence is less than convincing. More recently, scholars have been proposing the idea that chapters 10-13 were not actually part of the "severe letter" but part of a fifth and unknown letter. Anything dealing with Pauline chronology beyond what is evidenced is merely speculation. There is one opening section and one closing section in 2 Corinthians. There is no manuscript evidence that supports that the epistle was ever divided. One view that supports the book's unity is that chapters 10-13 were originally part of 2 Corinthians, but were written after Paul received news of further rebellion. This view simply seems to be a reaction to the scholarly studies in order to uphold the unity of the epistle. Though possible, it seems unlikely that Paul would receive information from Titus, begin writing his letter back to the Corinthians, then before finishing the letter receive more immediate news of the church behaving differently than was just reported. The epistle more appropriately seems to be a single unified letter written with all points in mind before the ink hit the paper. Gundry makes a valid point drawing the parallel of self-defense in both sections of the epistle and that the first part may be speaking to a "repentant majority" and the second part referring to a "still-recalcitrant minority." [5]
unsafe says ---Again all speculation -----no one really knows and it could be that God doesn't want us to focus on this type of stuff which takes away from His Word ------Just my view
: THE EPISTLES TO THE CORINTHIANS
Introduction to the Epistles to the Corinthians - Study Resources
Much more debate has arisen in regards to the unity of 2 Corinthians. Many scholars say that this epistle was not originally a single work, but is at least made up of parts of two individual letters. Brown states, "Among the letters in the Pauline corpus, the unity of II Cor has been the most challenged.…" [4] One of the most popular views among scholars is that 2 Cor. 10-13 is actually a part of the "severe letter" that was mentioned above. The reason why some scholars adhere to this view is based on the difference between 2 Cor. 1-9 and 10-13. The first section has a sense of optimism, while the second has one of pessimism. Paul is first excited and has "perfect confidence" in them (2 Cor. 7:16), but in 10-13 he says, "For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish" (2 Cor. 12:20).
The last four chapters of the epistle do seem to fit the content of what we would expect of the "severe letter," but the evidence is less than convincing. More recently, scholars have been proposing the idea that chapters 10-13 were not actually part of the "severe letter" but part of a fifth and unknown letter. Anything dealing with Pauline chronology beyond what is evidenced is merely speculation. There is one opening section and one closing section in 2 Corinthians. There is no manuscript evidence that supports that the epistle was ever divided. One view that supports the book's unity is that chapters 10-13 were originally part of 2 Corinthians, but were written after Paul received news of further rebellion. This view simply seems to be a reaction to the scholarly studies in order to uphold the unity of the epistle. Though possible, it seems unlikely that Paul would receive information from Titus, begin writing his letter back to the Corinthians, then before finishing the letter receive more immediate news of the church behaving differently than was just reported. The epistle more appropriately seems to be a single unified letter written with all points in mind before the ink hit the paper. Gundry makes a valid point drawing the parallel of self-defense in both sections of the epistle and that the first part may be speaking to a "repentant majority" and the second part referring to a "still-recalcitrant minority." [5]
unsafe says ---Again all speculation -----no one really knows and it could be that God doesn't want us to focus on this type of stuff which takes away from His Word ------Just my view
BetteTheRed
Resident Heretic
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Her
And it's equally likely that God wishes us to so immerse ourselves in theological studies that we revel in such interesting detail and theory.
See, I find the afterlife stuff that you are so fond of focussing on to be the purely speculative portion of theological discussions.
See, I find the afterlife stuff that you are so fond of focussing on to be the purely speculative portion of theological discussions.