Resolution - to read the Bible

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Jae said:

Hmm... would think he understands a little about it after years in seminary and decades in ministry. :whistle:

QUOTE]Hi Jae --
I was the furnace repair man, for the United churches in are area .Thanks to one of the owners of the company ,I worked with. He was a elder, in the church. I Talked to many Ministers who" had training in( seminary) who did not even believe in God". Yet I call a Minister REV, because GOD" appoints Revs. I believe many Ministers can get by on there training. That is of course, in a church without born again's.
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airclean33 said:
Hi RevJohn- I hope you and your family are well. That you also like your new post posting.
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Things are progressing quite nicely on the Brigus-Cupids-Georgetown pastoral charge. Very new experiences which require thoughtfulness and delicacy.

Thank you.

airclean33 said:
Well John Here I believe your right and wrong.
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Right once and wrong three times by your scoring.

airclean33 said:
Number one wrong
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Let's examine what the text says shall we and all the various translations

Genesis 41: 38 translation by translation.

ASV--And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom the spirit of God is?
AMP--So Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man like this [a man equal to Joseph], in whom is the divine spirit [of God]?”
CSB--and he said to them, “Can we find anyone like this, a man who has God’s spirit in him?”
CEB--and Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man with more God-given gifts than this one?”
CJB--Pharaoh said to his officials, “Can we find anyone else like him? The Spirit of God lives in him!”
CEV--So the king said to them, “No one could possibly handle this better than Joseph, since the Spirit of God is with him.”
DARBY--And Pharaoh said to his bondmen, Shall we find [one] as this, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
Douay-Rheim--And he said to them: Can we find such another man, that is full of the spirit of God?
GNV--Then said Pharaoh unto his servants, Can we find such a man as this, in whom is the Spirit of God?
KJV--And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
TLB--As they discussed who should be appointed for the job, Pharaoh said, “Who could do it better than Joseph? For he is a man who is obviously filled with the Spirit of God.”
MSG--Then Pharaoh said to his officials, “Isn’t this the man we need? Are we going to find anyone else who has God’s spirit in him like this?”
NASB--Then Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man like this, in whom is a divine spirit?”
NIV--So Pharaoh asked them, “Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?”
NLT--So Pharaoh asked his officials, “Can we find anyone else like this man so obviously filled with the spirit of God?”
NRSV--Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find anyone else like this—one in whom is the spirit of God?”
WYC--and he spake to them, Whether we be able to find such a man which is full of God’s spirit? (and Pharaoh said to them, Could we find any other man who is so full of God’s spirit as this man is?)
YLT-- and Pharaoh saith unto his servants, `Do we find like this, a man in whom the spirit of God [is]?'

18 individual translations and 17 of those 18 clearly translate the Hebrew texts to mean that the Holy Spirit is in Joseph. The one outlier among these many translations decides to go God given gifts which, at the very least, is reminiscint of Paul in 1 Corinthians 12.

Disagree with me about Genesis 41: 38 all you want. Engage the text and show how it is to be understood as meaning that the Spirit of God is not in Joseph. Show where all these translators have made their mistake since you disagree with the Spirit of God being inside of Joseph.

Numbers 24: 2 Translation by translation

ASV--And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel dwelling according to their tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him.
AMP--And Balaam raised his eyes and he saw Israel living in their tents tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came on him.
CSB--When Balaam looked up and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came on him,
CEB--Balaam looked up and saw Israel camping by tribes. Then God’s spirit came on him.
CJB--Bil‘am raised his eyes and saw Isra’el encamped tribe by tribe. Then the Spirit of God came upon him,
DARBY--And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel dwelling [in tents] according to his tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him.
Douay-Rheim--And lifting up his eyes, he saw Israel abiding in their tents by their tribes: and the spirit of God rushing upon him,
GNV--And Balaam lift up his eyes, and looked upon Israel, which dwelt according to their tribes, and the Spirit of God came upon him,
KJV--And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
TLB--which stretched away across the plains, divided by tribal areas. Then the Spirit of God came upon him,
MSG--By now Balaam realized that God wanted to bless Israel. So he didn’t work in any sorcery as he had done earlier. He turned and looked out over the wilderness. As Balaam looked, he saw Israel camped tribe by tribe. The Spirit of God came on him, and he spoke his oracle-message:
NASB--And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came upon him.
NIV--When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came on him
NLT--where he saw the people of Israel camped, tribe by tribe. Then the Spirit of God came upon him,
NRSV--Balaam looked up and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe. Then the spirit of God came upon him,
WYC--and he raised up his eyes, and he saw Israel dwelling in tents by his lineages (and he raised up his eyes, and he saw the Israelites living in their tents, tribe by tribe). And when the Spirit of God fell upon him,
YLT--and Balaam lifteth up his eyes, and seeth Israel tabernacling, by its tribes, and the Spirit of God is upon him,

You claim that I am wrong here because God is speaking to them. Which the text doesn't say. The Spirit of God, according to the text in all of the translations came upon Balaam and as a result Balaam spoke a prophecy. We could argue that God spoke through them and the Holy Spirit never entered into them.

That leads us back to 1 Corinthians 12 which definitely states that the gift of prophecy is a result of the Holy Spirit indwelling the individual.

Begging the questions

A) If the indwelling of the Holy Spirit results in the giving of the gift of Prophecy and leads to individuals with that gift being identified as Prophets how is it that Prophecy can happen without the Holy Spirit dwelling within a Prophet?

B) Is there a fundamental difference in the Prophecy uttered by individuals indwelt by the Holy Spirit and individuals not indwelt?

I agree that none of the translations are explicit in stating that the Holy Spirit entered into Balaam. They do say that the Holy Spirit rested upon him. Explain how that is less and renders the Prophetic utterances given by individuals upon whom the Holy Spirit rests are less Godly than those Prophetic utterances given by individuals in whom the Holy Spirit rests.

1 Samuel 10: 9-12 Translation by translation. To save space I am going to trim this to verses 9-10. I hope that is acceptable for the sake of the discussion.

ASV-- And it was so, that, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a band of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came mightily upon him, and he prophesied among them.

AMP--Then it happened when Saul turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 When they came to the hill [Gibeah], behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came on him mightily, and he prophesied [under divine guidance] among them.

CSB--When Saul turned around to leave Samuel, God changed his heart, and all the signs came about that day. 10 When Saul and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a group of prophets met him. Then the Spirit of God came powerfully on him, and he prophesied along with them.

CEB--And just as Saul turned to leave Samuel’s side, God gave him a different heart, and all these signs happened that very same day. 10 When Saul and the boy got to Gibeah, there was a group of prophets coming to meet him. God’s spirit came over Saul, and he was caught up in a prophetic frenzy right along with them.

CJV--As it happened, as soon as he had turned his back to leave Sh’mu’el, God gave him another heart; and all those signs took place that day. 10 When they arrived at the hill, and there in front of him was a group of prophets, the Spirit of God fell on him and he prophesied along with them.

DARBY--And it was [so] that when he turned his back to go away from Samuel, God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

Douay-Rheim--So when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave unto him another heart, and all these things came to pass that day. 10 And they came to the foresaid hill, and behold a company of prophets met him: and the spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he prophesied in the midst of them.

GNV--And when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart; and all those tokens came to pass that same day. 10 ¶ And when they came thither to the hill, behold, the company of Prophets met him, and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

KJV--And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

TLB--As Saul said good-bye and started to go, God gave him a new attitude, and all of Samuel’s prophecies came true that day. 10 When Saul and the servant arrived at the Hill of God, they saw the prophets coming toward them, and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he too began to prophesy.

MSG--Saul turned and left Samuel. At that very moment God transformed him—made him a new person! And all the confirming signs took place the same day. When Saul and his party got to Gibeah, there were the prophets, right in front of them! Before he knew it, the Spirit of God came on Saul and he was prophesying right along with them.

NASB--Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God his heart; and all those signs came about on that day. 10 the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them.

NIV--As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.

NLT--As Saul turned and started to leave, God gave him a new heart, and all Samuel’s signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When Saul and his servant arrived at Gibeah, they saw a group of prophets coming toward them. Then the Spirit of God came powerfully upon Saul, and he, too, began to prophesy.

NRSV--As he turned away to leave Samuel, God gave him another heart; and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When they were going from there to Gibeah, a band of prophets met him; and the spirit of God possessed him, and he fell into a prophetic frenzy along with them.

WYC--Therefore when Saul had turned away his shoulder to go from Samuel, God exchanged another heart to Saul (God gave Saul another heart), and all these signs came in that day. 10 And Saul and his servant came to the foresaid hill, and lo! a company of prophets were meeting with him (and lo! a group of prophets met him); and the Spirit of the Lord fell at once upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the prophets.

YLT--And it hath been, at his turning his shoulder to go from Samuel, that God turneth to him another heart, and all these signs come on that day, 10 and they come in thither to the height, and lo, a band of prophets -- to meet him, and prosper over him doth the Spirit of God, and he prophesieth in their midst.

Much like the Numbers passage. God is not here speaking to Saul. At most he would be speaking through Saul and the questions A) and B) asked above come into play.

What is different about this particular passage is the additional work accomplished by God of giving Saul a new heart. I wonder if a memory of Psalm 51 twigs for you? Particularly verse 10.
airclean33 said:
Number two is right , As Moses needed help in administering to Israel. So GOD did chose Men to help him . And gave them the Holy Spirit to help GODS People".
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Even if, for the sake of the argument we eliminate texts 1, 3 and 4 from consideration you do permit text two to stand.

That text alone, I believe, is sufficient to prove the point I was making. That the statement made above about the Jews not having the Holy Spirit indwell them to be false. So the texts lifted up by friend blackbelt1961 are not proper proofs supporting that idea.

airclean33 said:
Please pay Attention more to John3: 35--36-37 !
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And what kind of attention would you have me pay them? Do I read them exclusive of all other scripture or informed by all other scripture? Being shaped by a Trinitarian perspective I don't see an artificial boundary that delineates belief in the Father being deficient to belief in the Son or belief in the Holy Spirit. Three persons, One God.

Thanks also for lifting up verse2 of John 3. One wonders what it is that Jews can accomplish without having the Holy Spirit in them that Christians cannot accomplish unless the Holy Spirit be within them?

I am mindful that this tangent distracts from Seeler's thread. I will be happy to continue conversation on this matter elsewhere. Out of respect to Seeler I will not continue it here.[/quote][/quote]
 
I think the best way to oppose those Christians most insistent that they both have and know the Holy Spirit better than anyone, is to put them on display. Give them a platform, and let everyone watch them. The dimmest bulbs in the room are screaming that they are the brightest, and it's hilarious to watch.

There really is no nice way to put it accurately. These are stupid, insecure people, who need others to agree with them to validate their faith. I oppose Christianity in general, and while it's the sort of faith they promote that I'm most against, all Christians end up associated with them. It's not fair, but that's what happens. These are the people you need to address, but there is no energy in Christian circles to do so. Bring up atheists, and that gets lots of Christians worked up. Bring up idiot fundamentalists, and there is a contentment to simply disagree and move on. I'd wager idiot fundamentalists create more atheists than atheists do.
 
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revjohn said:
Things are progressing quite nicely on the Brigus-Cupids-Georgetown pastoral charge. Very new experiences which require thoughtfulness and delicacy.

Thank you.



Right once and wrong three times by your scoring.



Let's examine what the text says shall we and all the various translations

Genesis 41: 38 translation by translation.

ASV--And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this, a man in whom the spirit of God is?
AMP--So Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man like this [a man equal to Joseph], in whom is the divine spirit [of God]?”
CSB--and he said to them, “Can we find anyone like this, a man who has God’s spirit in him?”
CEB--and Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man with more God-given gifts than this one?”
CJB--Pharaoh said to his officials, “Can we find anyone else like him? The Spirit of God lives in him!”
CEV--So the king said to them, “No one could possibly handle this better than Joseph, since the Spirit of God is with him.”
DARBY--And Pharaoh said to his bondmen, Shall we find [one] as this, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
Douay-Rheim--And he said to them: Can we find such another man, that is full of the spirit of God?
GNV--Then said Pharaoh unto his servants, Can we find such a man as this, in whom is the Spirit of God?
KJV--And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?
TLB--As they discussed who should be appointed for the job, Pharaoh said, “Who could do it better than Joseph? For he is a man who is obviously filled with the Spirit of God.”
MSG--Then Pharaoh said to his officials, “Isn’t this the man we need? Are we going to find anyone else who has God’s spirit in him like this?”
NASB--Then Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man like this, in whom is a divine spirit?”
NIV--So Pharaoh asked them, “Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?”
NLT--So Pharaoh asked his officials, “Can we find anyone else like this man so obviously filled with the spirit of God?”
NRSV--Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find anyone else like this—one in whom is the spirit of God?”
WYC--and he spake to them, Whether we be able to find such a man which is full of God’s spirit? (and Pharaoh said to them, Could we find any other man who is so full of God’s spirit as this man is?)
YLT-- and Pharaoh saith unto his servants, `Do we find like this, a man in whom the spirit of God [is]?'

18 individual translations and 17 of those 18 clearly translate the Hebrew texts to mean that the Holy Spirit is in Joseph. The one outlier among these many translations decides to go God given gifts which, at the very least, is reminiscint of Paul in 1 Corinthians 12.

Disagree with me about Genesis 41: 38 all you want. Engage the text and show how it is to be understood as meaning that the Spirit of God is not in Joseph. Show where all these translators have made their mistake since you disagree with the Spirit of God being inside of Joseph.

Numbers 24: 2 Translation by translation



--Airclean--post --
Really John this looks kind of childish, to me . It was the Pharaoh of Egypt who said". So now you wish to say the leader of Egypt" was also full of GODS" Holy Spirit?

--John --post---
ASV--And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel dwelling according to their tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him.
AMP--And Balaam raised his eyes and he saw Israel living in their tents tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came on him.

--Airclean--post
Please note The Spirit came on him. Not in him..


CSB--When Balaam looked up and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came on him,
CEB--Balaam looked up and saw Israel camping by tribes. Then God’s spirit came on him.
CJB--Bil‘am raised his eyes and saw Isra’el encamped tribe by tribe. Then the Spirit of God came upon him,
DARBY--And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel dwelling [in tents] according to his tribes; and the Spirit of God came upon him.
Douay-Rheim--And lifting up his eyes, he saw Israel abiding in their tents by their tribes: and the spirit of God rushing upon him,
GNV--And Balaam lift up his eyes, and looked upon Israel, which dwelt according to their tribes, and the Spirit of God came upon him,
KJV--And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.
TLB--which stretched away across the plains, divided by tribal areas. Then the Spirit of God came upon him,
MSG--By now Balaam realized that God wanted to bless Israel. So he didn’t work in any sorcery as he had done earlier. He turned and looked out over the wilderness. As Balaam looked, he saw Israel camped tribe by tribe. The Spirit of God came on him, and he spoke his oracle-message:
NASB--And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came upon him.
NIV--When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came on him
NLT--where he saw the people of Israel camped, tribe by tribe. Then the Spirit of God came upon him,
NRSV--Balaam looked up and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe. Then the spirit of God came upon him,
WYC--and he raised up his eyes, and he saw Israel dwelling in tents by his lineages (and he raised up his eyes, and he saw the Israelites living in their tents, tribe by tribe). And when the Spirit of God fell upon him,
YLT--and Balaam lifteth up his eyes, and seeth Israel tabernacling, by its tribes, and the Spirit of God is upon him,

You claim that I am wrong here because God is speaking to them. Which the text doesn't say. The Spirit of God, according to the text in all of the translations came upon Balaam and as a result Balaam spoke a prophecy. We could argue that God spoke through them and the Holy Spirit never entered into them.


Airclean--post--
Many in the Old testament were touched by GOD" , and spook as they were told". This is not the infilling of GODS Hold Spirit John. You really don't get it ".

---John--- post----
That leads us back to 1 Corinthians 12 which definitely states that the gift of prophecy is a result of the Holy Spirit indwelling the individual.

--Airclean--post--Yes I agree.



--John--Post---
Begging the questions

A) If the indwelling of the Holy Spirit results in the giving of the gift of Prophecy and leads to individuals with that gift being identified as Prophets how is it that Prophecy can happen without the Holy Spirit dwelling within a Prophet?


--Airclean--post--
--Yes John Prophecy is one of GODS Gift to His Chosen. That is those who receive Christ , as Lord and Saviour and have confessed there sins. This dose not mean though all" who have GODS infilling of His Holy Spirit will Prophesize" .


--John--post---
B) Is there a fundamental difference in the Prophecy uttered by individuals indwelt by the Holy Spirit and individuals not indwelt?

---Airclean--post--There is no difference I know of". Now" saying that dose not mean there are no difference, on what is being prophesized." There are many ways GOD can speak.

--John--post--
I agree that none of the translations are explicit in stating that the Holy Spirit entered into Balaam. They do say that the Holy Spirit rested upon him. Explain how that is less and renders the Prophetic utterances given by individuals upon whom the Holy Spirit rests are less Godly than those Prophetic utterances given by individuals in whom the Holy Spirit rests.

1 Samuel 10: 9-12 Translation by translation. To save space I am going to trim this to verses 9-10. I hope that is acceptable for the sake of the discussion.

ASV-- And it was so, that, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a band of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came mightily upon him, and he prophesied among them.

AMP--Then it happened when Saul turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 When they came to the hill [Gibeah], behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came on him mightily, and he prophesied [under divine guidance] among them.

CSB--When Saul turned around to leave Samuel, God changed his heart, and all the signs came about that day. 10 When Saul and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a group of prophets met him. Then the Spirit of God came powerfully on him, and he prophesied along with them.

CEB--And just as Saul turned to leave Samuel’s side, God gave him a different heart, and all these signs happened that very same day. 10 When Saul and the boy got to Gibeah, there was a group of prophets coming to meet him. God’s spirit came over Saul, and he was caught up in a prophetic frenzy right along with them.

CJV--As it happened, as soon as he had turned his back to leave Sh’mu’el, God gave him another heart; and all those signs took place that day. 10 When they arrived at the hill, and there in front of him was a group of prophets, the Spirit of God fell on him and he prophesied along with them.

DARBY--And it was [so] that when he turned his back to go away from Samuel, God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

Douay-Rheim--So when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave unto him another heart, and all these things came to pass that day. 10 And they came to the foresaid hill, and behold a company of prophets met him: and the spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he prophesied in the midst of them.

GNV--And when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart; and all those tokens came to pass that same day. 10 ¶ And when they came thither to the hill, behold, the company of Prophets met him, and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

KJV--And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. 10 And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

TLB--As Saul said good-bye and started to go, God gave him a new attitude, and all of Samuel’s prophecies came true that day. 10 When Saul and the servant arrived at the Hill of God, they saw the prophets coming toward them, and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he too began to prophesy.

MSG--Saul turned and left Samuel. At that very moment God transformed him—made him a new person! And all the confirming signs took place the same day. When Saul and his party got to Gibeah, there were the prophets, right in front of them! Before he knew it, the Spirit of God came on Saul and he was prophesying right along with them.

NASB--Then it happened when he turned his back to leave Samuel, God his heart; and all those signs came about on that day. 10 the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them.

NIV--As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.

NLT--As Saul turned and started to leave, God gave him a new heart, and all Samuel’s signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When Saul and his servant arrived at Gibeah, they saw a group of prophets coming toward them. Then the Spirit of God came powerfully upon Saul, and he, too, began to prophesy.

NRSV--As he turned away to leave Samuel, God gave him another heart; and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When they were going from there to Gibeah, a band of prophets met him; and the spirit of God possessed him, and he fell into a prophetic frenzy along with them.

WYC--Therefore when Saul had turned away his shoulder to go from Samuel, God exchanged another heart to Saul (God gave Saul another heart), and all these signs came in that day. 10 And Saul and his servant came to the foresaid hill, and lo! a company of prophets were meeting with him (and lo! a group of prophets met him); and the Spirit of the Lord fell at once upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the prophets.

YLT--And it hath been, at his turning his shoulder to go from Samuel, that God turneth to him another heart, and all these signs come on that day, 10 and they come in thither to the height, and lo, a band of prophets -- to meet him, and prosper over him doth the Spirit of God, and he prophesieth in their midst.

Much like the Numbers passage. God is not here speaking to Saul. At most he would be speaking through Saul and the questions A) and B) asked above come into play.

--Airclean--post--

Here again John on him not in" him , I think we all know what happened to Saul", The first King of Israel".

--John--post---
What is different about this particular passage is the additional work accomplished by God of giving Saul a new heart. I wonder if a memory of Psalm 51 twigs for you? Particularly verse 10.

--Airclean--post---
Yes John David , who of all people needed GODS forgiveness . He is singing a song to GOD. Dose this mean God Forgave David." I believe at this time the Law said , Kill a person who has Killed another. That is not even saying much about his other sins ,One Adultery; Then they had to obey GODS Laws." Which GOD has said leads to death.

--John --Post----
Even if, for the sake of the argument we eliminate texts 1, 3 and 4 from consideration you do permit text two to stand.

That text alone, I believe, is sufficient to prove the point I was making. That the statement made above about the Jews not having the Holy Spirit indwell them to be false. So the texts lifted up by friend blackbelt1961 are not proper proofs supporting that idea.


Ariclean--post --
An yet Moses ,was not allow to go into the Promise Land. In the Old Testament John I believe GOD was working with the Flesh , The New seems to be more with The Spirit. Please keep in mind . GOD" is a living Spirit .


--John Post---
And what kind of attention would you have me pay them? Do I read them exclusive of all other scripture or informed by all other scripture? Being shaped by a Trinitarian perspective I don't see an artificial boundary that delineates belief in the Father being deficient to belief in the Son or belief in the Holy Spirit. Three persons, One God.

Thanks also for lifting up verse2 of John 3. One wonders what it is that Jews can accomplish without having the Holy Spirit in them that Christians cannot accomplish unless the Holy Spirit be within them?

--Airclean--post---
John did you not read, The Christ said not one person , before Him has made it. He and He alone is the way to GOD The Father. You cannot earn your way there. One mistake and your gone".


I am mindful that this tangent distracts from Seeler's thread. I will be happy to continue conversation on this matter elsewhere. Out of respect to Seeler I will not continue it here.
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[/quote]

[/QUOTE]Please accept mine also Seeler , I hope some of what John" and I talked about helps , in your Quest" .May GOD Be With You . airclean33-Gord.
 
Fabrications have been woven throughout time ... by the great weaver ... although some feel it a thin cover-up ... negli Jaes ... almost trans Lucent ...
 
revsdd said:
I've never thought of revjohn as satin. Cotton maybe. Linen perhaps. But satin? I dunno.
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True story (that I have probably told before): many years ago, I was somewhat active on the Usenet group alt.horror, dedicated to discussing horror fiction, movies, etc. Some troll posted something along the lines of "you are all worshipping Satin" (misspelling "Satan" obviously). Needless to say, the jokes came swiftly and were quite merciless. It was an unmoderated group (as most alt. groups were), too.
 
Found time to read three chapters in Exodus. Detailed instructions on building the ark of the covenant and the tabernacle.
Moving on.
Continued on to the next day's reading (tomorrow will be busy). Detailed instructions for sewing garments for Aaron and his sons to wear while being anointed as priests. More instructions - about offerings of bulls and goats. Far more details than I am interested in. But lots of gold and valuable jewels.

Question: will having the Ark to symbolize God dwelling among them and elaborate rituals to be performed by Priests help the Israelites on their journey?
Is it right to give God the first and best - the most elaborate?
 
Interesting story about giving one's best and most elaborate. Visited Ste. Anne de Beaupre a couple of summers ago. Very elaborate cathedral like building (officially a basilica), two full sanctuaries, and some of the most beautiful doors I've ever seen. Hand-hammered copper, each door different, illustrating a different passage about Jesus' life. Went to the little museum nearby, which is also a copper studio, where they produce a lot of lovely plates, jewellery, etc. These doors were all produced by the founder of this firm, deceased a few decades now. He made them personally and donated them to the building of the basilica. It was his first and best.
 
Bette - giving his best to God. I remember visiting Ste. Anne de Beaupre when I first moved to Montreal as a 17 year-old. I was overwhelmed by its size and beauty. What an awesome God we have to inspire such creativity and delight.
When I lead worship I generally follow the lectionary - so I'm not apt to preach on any part of these chapters from Exodus (26-29). But if I were this would probably be the direction I would take - Give Your Best to God - best ppossessions, best talents, but more important simply being the best that you can be in whatever role you are given.
 
Seeler said:
Bette - giving his best to God. I remember visiting Ste. Anne de Beaupre when I first moved to Montreal as a 17 year-old. I was overwhelmed by its size and beauty. What an awesome God we have to inspire such creativity and delight.
When I lead worship I generally follow the lectionary - so I'm not apt to preach on any part of these chapters from Exodus (26-29). But if I were this would probably be the direction I would take - Give Your Best to God - best ppossessions, best talents, but more important simply being the best that you can be in whatever role you are given.
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God takes it in the end anyway ... nothing left but the essence, an odour ... and perhaps the bones of a story ... in Gael tradition Cajon ... all Ba'aL' dupe as spiritual people are a bit Eire ... thus it be Lo' ... seized 'ere ... restricted PEW? Noi Magi Zea?

Tis a flood of word(s) to say least ... po'lyre understood than you could aspire to ... like stue stays with morley ...

Rabi fading away ...
 
Hi,

"Take my life and let it be, consecrated God to thee."

I take great delight in the plurality of voices pronounced in the Bible. It is at least a little like sitting in a circle of conversation. Dialogue seems key to hearing the word of God by which the diversity of biblical sources were inspired and recorded.

I am much taken with the story of Jacob wrestling with the angel of God. His attitudes inspires my own: "I will not let you go until you bless me." That is how I face scripture. It challenges me from a diversity of perspectives. My task is not to sort out what is right and what is wrong. My task is to discern and practice encouragements and supports. My young imagination was sparked by the story of a young boy walking out to face a boasting giant. Now I am wholly oriented to refusing the claims of those social structures by which we are being exploited and oppressed, together with the earth and all of its creatures.
Seeler said:
Question: will having the Ark to symbolize God dwelling among them and elaborate rituals to be performed by Priests help the Israelites on their journey?
Click to expand...
When the people stood in a right relationship with the ark and its ritualistic context things went well. This is not the norm in Israel. From 1 Samuel to Malachi the problem of religious and political misuse and abuse of responsibility is noticed. The prophets consistently call priests and kings to repentance. This always on the matter of equity in the social economy. Priests are noticed as complicit in the exploitive and oppressive practice of kings. We do well to notice the role of priest and king in the story about Jesus from Nazareth.

George





 
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