Poor Thomas.....

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Redbaron

Pirate fan since the dark ages
Pronouns
He/Him/His

Poor Thomas. First he misses out on the fun in the locked room that first Easter evening. Then, when the others who were there report to him what they've seen, he doesn't buy into it. 'If I don't see it for myself, I don't believe.' The next week, Thomas is afforded the opportunity to see what the others had seen the week before. Now he believes.

For this incident, Thomas is called the Doubter, and has had a bad reputation in many circles for doubting. (I remember a Sunday School chorus that included the line, "Don't be a Doubting Thomas/ Rest fully on His promise.")

Was Thomas wrong to not just accept the incredible on the others' say-so? Did he have some sort of moral failure in doubting? Is there a place in faith for doubting and questioning? What do you think?
 
He/Ur/Id ... was a like a shadow on the other side of the great parietal gap ... thus twins in theory ... one lighter the other obscure as something drifting through a cave ---Plato! Generally unseen ...
 
He was actually the smart Apostle. He clearly was someone who thought about things and wanted to know for sure before he committed. It was not weakness, it was strength. And he did, in fact, come around when presented with clear, strong evidence. I would only fault him if he kept doubting after seeing the evidence (unless he had a good reason to reject that evidence).
 
Why did Thomas miss that first gathering? Could it be he was ready to move past his grief more quickly than the others?

Or was he indifferent to what had happened?
 
Why did Thomas miss that first gathering? Could it be he was ready to move past his grief more quickly than the others?

Or was he indifferent to what had happened?
Maybe he was running late, only arriving after the doors were locked?
 
Why did Thomas miss that first gathering? Could it be he was ready to move past his grief more quickly than the others?

Or was he indifferent to what had happened?
One theory I have seen is that maybe Thomas had gone out to get some food for the group.......

I think Thomas gets a raw deal, he is only asking for the same proof that the others have already had.
 
One theory I have seen is that maybe Thomas had gone out to get some food for the group.......
Maybe that was it.
I think Thomas gets a raw deal, he is only asking for the same proof that the others have already had.
Thomas has also missed out on a powerful group experience the others shared. I don't blame him for getting a little petulant.

Jesus even seems a tad critical of Thomas for requiring proof.

Why does Jesus say, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe"? Is he talking about disciples or followers of the future?
 
Why does Jesus say, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe"? Is he talking about disciples or followers of the future?
Well, since the others had seen the week before, it couldn't have been referring to them. Likely Jesus was speaking of those of later generations, when the original witnesses had passed from the scene. No more direct connection, but still a continuing community.
 
My View
God the Father told Jesus who to pick for the 12 ---Jesus did nothing on His own Will --So God the Father knew the hearts of the 12 before they were picked -----So God knew that Thomas would have a wavering weak Faith throughout his time with Jesus and I believe this was intentional -----

Thomas represents what Human Faith is ---in my view-----a Faith where seeing is believing ---Human Faith relies on the 5 senses and we are all born with this Faith----so this Faith cannot produce ----we believe in what we ---see --hear --touch ---taste and smell

God's Faith comes by hearing the Gospel ---this Faith Relies on what you cannot see -----this Faith is a producing kind of Faith ------God spoke Faith words and created this world -----We believe Jesus walked on this earth even when we were not here to see Him in the flesh -----

So there is a difference in the 2 Faiths ------

Thomas experienced all what the others experienced being with Jesus but Thomas kept doubting ----where the others had some doubts at times but did believe that Jesus was who He said He was The Messiah -----Thomas doubted all the time and had to see to believe ----

So I think God used Thomas as an example of showing the difference between Human Faith and God's faith which is called--- Saving Faith ----

Doubt is also different in this World and the Spiritual Realm -------

Doubt in this world can be a blessing -----you doubt that if you see a car coming you could cross the road safely ---and so you wait -----great choice -----doubt here is a good thing ---
you doubt your investment will make you money so you change to another investment which seems better ---good choice ---doubt is good ----


Doubt in the Spiritual Realm is ---not good -----it blocks your blessings ----It blocks your believe in who Jesus really was and is --------doubt blocks God's Promised to the Born Again Person -----it blocks your prayers --so it blocks your answers ----it weakens your Faith and Trust----- Doubt in the Spiritual realm is not From God ---it comes by way of the unseen enemy--Satan --- to block your Faith in God so you distrust Him and His Word ---

So I believe God here is showing the Difference to us in allowing Thomas to keep his Doubting in tack all the way through him being with Jesus ---witnessing the Miracles ---healing ---casting out demons ---- listening to the Gospel ----etc

So I think we should see doubting Thomas as a learning tool --in understanding this word Doubt as it relates in this World and then God's World -----

Human Faith requires Doubt
God's Faith rebukes Doubt
 
My View:
There is no real distinction between 'worldly" and "spiritual" doubt. Doubt is doubt.

Now, there can be two outcomes of doubt; it can paralyze you ('Paralysis by analysis') or it can spur you on to further questioning (like 'ask and you will receive, seek and you will find.') Doubt can serve as that burr in the saddle that keeps you looking further, not settling for easy, pat responses that require no effort, learning, even if you never find any final answers. As someone much wiser than I am has remarked, 'It is better to have honest questions that can't be answered, than pat answers that daren't be questioned.'

To have doubts is NOT to lack faith. In fact, some would assert that the opposite of faith isn't doubt, but cocksure certainty. I can understand the thinking behind that assertion. As far as faithfulness is concerned, the tradition tells us that Thomas traveled as far as India to share the faith. There is a monastery on a rise there, called Mt. St. Thomas, where it has been said Thomas was martyred.

I would be interested, though, in reading any scriptural passages you can find about the distinction between "worldly' and 'spiritual' doubts. I doubt you can find any. Feel free to prove me wrong.
 
Oh, and another thing...

Thomas represents what Human Faith is ---in my view-----a Faith where seeing is believing

19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors were locked where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

Apparently is wasn't Thomas alone, who had to see before he would truly believe.
 
We have come up with a few different reasons why Thomas might have been absent on Easter night. But we can't know.

Could this be a lesson about the importance of remaining in a community of faith?
 
Could this be a lesson about the importance of remaining in a community of faith?
How so? Seems a stretch, esp. if he was just away on an errand like fetching food.

I think the key message for me is the importance of personal experience in building faith (and, yes, that's a bit different from what I said above, but it does jibe with it if you think about it). After all, the other disciples also were shown his pierced hands and side. It does not need to be as literal as this, but I think there does need to be some kind of personal experience of the transcendent involved in faith. Jesus does say, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe" but that does not necessarily preclude some other personal experience or moment of insight contributing to that belief. In the end, I think most people of faith have a "Thomas moment", not in the sense of doubting necessarily, but in the sense of some personal experience contributing to how they believe and what they have faith in.
 
The final line of John is interesting, "31 But these are written so that you may continue[b] to believe that Jesus is the Messiah,[c] the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name."

Note the words "continue to believe". That implies people who already believe. So is John trying to win converts or is he trying to provide a focus for the community to keep them together and united in faith in Jesus?
 
Imagine being up against the gates of heaven ... inside which there are no cares, concerns, worries, etc.

Makes me ponder a number of powerful folk that plow on without understanding the communications in the form of Koine!

Even that is poorly conflicted ... otherwise gnawed over ... debate over never ending matter? Thus vast nothings ... succotash ... hills of legumes, etc.

Never too much corn given the serious corruption encountered in great reality! Consider trumping truth ... it is down not out ...

Kind of innate ... but one must extend to experience the objective of lies! That's extant ...

Does Ra rage silently in the mid dais? Weird eh? Life is thus chaos ... and frustration personified!
 
Note the words "continue to believe". That implies people who already believe. So is John trying to win converts or is he trying to provide a focus for the community to keep them together and united in faith in Jesus?

I think to understand this you need to see the saying in context ------

John 20:30-31

Amplified Bible​

Purpose of Writing this Gospel​

30 There are also many other signs (attesting miracles) that Jesus performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

31 but these have been written so that you may believe [with a deep, abiding trust] that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of God; and that by believing [and trusting in and relying on Him] you may have life in His name.

My view is
This is for Believers ---as there are Babes in Christ who are not mature in their Faith walk with Christ and John is speaking to encourage their Faith to believe and trust in the Words that are written in the Book -------as John here gives the purpose for the Gospel being written ------to encourage believing people who may have wavering Faith to continue to believe and trust in who Jesus is and rely on Him so by their believing and trusting in the Word they have eternal life in His Name -----

that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of God; and that by believing [and trusting in and relying on Him] you may have life in His name.

Greek word for -----continue--- which is the word you use in your Post

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
menó: to stay, abide, remain
abide, continue, dwell, remain

A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) -- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain to remain beside, continue always near

Greek word for--- May ---as used in Amp Bible

Strong's Concordance
echó: to have, hold​

Definition: to have, hold
Usage: I have, hold, possess.

So believers are to trust and believe that what the Word---Who Is Jesus ---- says is true and will come to pass -------God's Faith Produces what it says it will in His Word -------

here is what John is saying ---behind the words in my view ------

Don't allow the cares of this World or others who try to use their influence to distract your Faith in what is Written in this Book -----Believers have to remain Faithful in their belief and trust God's word and keep a close relationship with Jesus --and they will possess eternal life ------

This is a perfect example of God's Faith which is relying on what you can't see yet --- that is having eternal life in Heaven with Jesus -----all you have is the written Word and God's Faith to sustain your belief -------your Hope is in the future -----
 
We had this lesson at church today but we didn't even talk about doubt. It was Holy Humor Sunday which celebrates laughter and joy. The Resurrection, too.

We were asked to imagine the joy the disciples would have felt at seeing Jesus.

It was a fun service with joyful music.
 
We had this lesson at church today but we didn't even talk about doubt. It was Holy Humor Sunday which celebrates laughter and joy. The Resurrection, too.

We were asked to imagine the joy the disciples would have felt at seeing Jesus.

It was a fun service with joyful music.

Do you feel struck by one of the odd immortalized tomes?
 
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